Maybe you misunderstood what he was saying. He's not saying that one person can have two opposing opinions about a moral issue and have it be right.

He is saying that just because you don't agree with their morals it doesn't make them not allowed to have their own moral code. They are entitled to hold their own morals just as much as we are allowed to have our own.

Woot! Brilliant :D

Even if they did let the bastard off as well!

Yes, but they're not entitled to force their own morality on visitors. It's a little like what happened here recently, where an Indian lady was refused the right to an abortion even though it ended up costing both ehr and the baby their lives. This is the problem in a theocracy, or even where the Church has too much power over the State. If you legislate on the basis of religion then I think it's not right to subject people who are not of that religion to laws that are rooted in it, which is what happens with Sharia Law. Just because you're in a Muslim country does not make you a Muslim. What's next? All visitors must report to the mosque five times a day or risk being jailed? :rolleyes:

Just read the report! Sanity prevails! Well done everyone! :tramp:

Who are you to tell them how to run their country though? You are speaking as an outsider that doesn't understand their morality and laws. You just know it's religious and you hate their religion being applied by their government.

I freely admit I know next to nothjign about Islam, however I suspect this Sharia Law is less to do with religion and more to do with men (using the term specifically) using their religion to shape laws they want. You think if Mohammed had said "all men must wear pink at all times" or "men should walk behind their women" that they would do that? Bollocks. It's the same way Christianity has been "rewritten" to suit a patriarchical society, and keep women down. I don't say that Christianity is right either, but any law or religion that discriminates against one gender is wrong in my book, and any time it's taken to the point of being reinforced as state law is doubly wrong.

I wonder what the muslim women would have to say about it? You're an outsider too you know. As a pure, basic human right this Sharia Law seems to me to be a denial of basic freedoms for women. Do you suggest that what the Nazis did was okay too? It was their law. Were they right to enforce it? Were those who protested and fought against it wrong? Like I said already, just because it's law doesn't make it right. I find it very hard to understand anyone supporting, condoning or making excuses for such a regime.

I may be an outsider but why don't you think for a second. Do you really think that Islam only around to keep women down and deny them of their basic freedoms? Why would so many women still be a part of that religion if it were true?

The lines from the Quran that people like to quote are generally taking out of context. I have a Quran and I know.

That Nazi example is just a bad one all around. You are attempting to take the ideology of a political party and say it's the same thing as a religion just based off of your moral compass.

No I am certainly not. I am trying to postulate an example of a government/ruling party/hierarchy that makes laws that are morally wrong, and ask why this is any different to laws which discriminate against women in hardline Islamist states? If you had heard in the late 1930s that it had become acceptable, even law, in Germany that jews could not own property, that gays had to wear special labels as did jews to identify themselves, and that these people could be hurt, insulted, killed even with impunity, woudl you have said well that's their country and their laws, so it's ok? There's no difference, other than the time one. It's still a force in power passing unfair, unjust, criminal laws against one sector of society, and this appears to be the way Sharia law is constructed; women seem to have very little if any say or importance in it. What about honour killings? Stonings? You're telling me these are acceptable laws for a country to be clinging to in the twenty-first century?

And don't go telling me I'm following my own moral compass: the vast majority of people see these as unjust laws, it's not only me. I can't understand, as I say, why you appear to be supporting, condoning and excusing them. I know I've said that before but you have avoided that question and I would like to know what your basis for that is, other than the very easy get-out "oh it's their country they know what they're doing" that you're pushing.

In other news: I'm delighted Marte is being released, and this argument seems to be going nowhere, but I'll be damned if I'll back down and be told I don't know what I'm talking about by someone I view as an apologist for Sharia law and hardline muslim practice.

Why shouldn't he? They're always preaching how the western world is full of sin.

So do Christians. Ironically, Christians are also often misogynistic.

You know what the western world IS full of?

White people.

Yes and I find them just as annoying too and we're free to criticise them.

Under muslim law we wouldn't

Read the edit.

I did but it meant nothing to me

It's not "Islamic" law, but fundamentalist Islam. Guess who most people picture when you say "Muslim"? Brown people. You see a white woman in a hijab and you don't automatically run out and try to save her from an arranged marriage. However, you see a woman of colour in a Hijab and you think she must be oppressed when it's not even law to wear a Hijab in most places, but the woman is free to choose, as is her right.

That's what we call racism

Did I put it in small enough words for you :)

Fundie Christians do just as bad if not worse misogyny. Quiverfull movements like the Duggars, especially.

Also if Trollheart's allowed to be express opinions that could be interpreted as racist, someone should be able to say "hey that's racist" instead of whining about their butthurt feelings cause someone doesn't agree with them. But apparently Musicbanter is run by fundamental Muslims.

Really because I've seen even moderate Islamists saying that Islam shouldn't be criticised in any way and should be against the law.

My point wasn't that Trollheart was correct in his assumption, it was that at least he's free to express it.

And having half my family being Hindus from India I'm well aware of what racism looks like ta. :)

You're white tho

:laughing:

That's like me saying I know what it's like to fly because I once owned a bird.
Or saying you're not racist because your wife is black.

Sorry but your relationships =/= actual experience.

Hindus are not even the same as Muslims jesus, what does that have to do with anything? That's just like when people attacked Sikhs after 9/11. Really tho?

Doesn't mean I've not experienced it.

Yes please enlighten us on your experience of Racism while being Muslim, I'm sure you have very illustrious ideas, complete with intersectional accesssories!

Now you're just being an arse
Goodbye

No I'm being serious, you have no idea what you're talking about if you don't realise that it's not a black and white issue but has many facets. All racism is not the same as racism in the Islamic community. That's just ignorant.

If you say so

I do

because I've been told so by brown Muslim friends.

You know that racism means believing there are biologically distinct races of humans and that some are superior/inferior to others? In other words, criticizing misogynistic laws or values is not racist because they are not racial features.

it is when you don't critcise other religions on misogyny. Especially when that religion is mostly brown people.

No, it is not. If anything, you're the racist for suggesting it is racist because in so doing, you are claiming these beliefs/values are in fact tied to race, which is a racist idea.

I just discuss the laws and values. I don't bring race into it at all.

... wow

i'm racist for calling out racism. brilliant. are you lost?

For your information : this thread is not about race. Can you stay on topic, please?

Notice how you didn't give a shit when HHBH calls it racism.

Sexist.

You know this kind of mentality is why westerners are hated so much in the first place. They want to come into a country and force their morality and culture onto others because of their own personal feelings/morals. I might not agree with the way they run things in their country but I don't feel like I have to be some freedom fighter on my high horse and go into their country to destroy their culture over it.

Exactly, just like with France outlawing the hijab.

:rolleyes:

That Marte got released probably has a lot to do with the ****storm of reactions it generated, here included, and for that I want to say thanks again to those who did something; complained about it somewhere publically, wrote a letter, signed a petition, shared it to your friends, etc. You all contributed to Marte's pardon.

The idea that we have to worry about our political correctness to the point where we can't discuss laws and values for fear of being perceived as racist is completely ridiculous to me. Dubais is doing their best to attract westerners, yet we have no right to complain about how we are treated there? And the reason is that doing so is racist? Claiming that is ignorant.

djchameleon and Hermione, you demonstrate a very rigid sort of us and them thinking; "they" being the muslims and "us" being non-muslims. In so doing, you make this a matter of groups and make that important. But I think there are plenty of muslims who would support Marte and who wishes for more gender equality, also in Dubais. And our western societies is part made up of muslims who have their place in your democracies, just like you guys do. Why make this a matter of race or groups when it's really about values? And when does not talking about a problem ever help?

edit :

By your logic and how you've just debated, shouldn't you say it's up to the people of France whether they want to perceive the hijab as misogynistic and ban it or not? That they have a right to do so if they want and that you should not complain about that?

Your post seems contradictory.

Considering that Marte is now released and that this thread seems to have descended into an argument about racism, sexism, misogyny and what seems to be a lot of name-calling and ill will, I would suggest it is now closed. It's served its purpose and I'm delighted Marte is free, but further discussion --- unless the title is changed and it becomes a basic thread about the above --- seems now pointless and counterproductive.

Just my suggestion to perhaps help calm things down.

no ****, it's called "intersectionality"

If we don't then why campaign to get the woman released :confused: Surely if they've enforced their own law then it's just tough shit? (That's not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone either.)

But as far as how countries run themselves, it is not for you or I to say if the women in the Middle East are treated unfairly. That's for them to decide. Their customs, their culture, their business.

Saying that, Islam (and Sharia Law) isn't just a religion, it's an ideology. It covers everything from law, to banking, to politics. And it isn't just in practice in the Middle East either (44% Muslim where I live.) Sharia is there to be criticised.

Correct.

Thousands rally in UK to demand end to anti-Islam speeches - thenews.com.pk

They mention the film that came out in 2012 (I've seen a clip, it's absolutely awful but piss funny in places EDIT - found it - http://youtu.be/1g983qD_d5M), fair enough I can see why you'd get pissed off at that if you're a soft arse, but banning it? Take the infamous cartoons in 2005 for example, how many people lost their lives worldwide because of the barbaric show of intolerance?

And by 'preaching hate every day', they're referring to the EDL. Why should the EDL not be allowed to demonstrate lol?

Why? People are disagreeing but it's not exactly out of hand.

Exactly, I don't see anything warranting this thread to be closed down or for anything to be calmed down. Sometimes threads in this section may get a be heated but it's not where near the level of needing to be closed yet.

I agree.

However it wasn't just the hijab they banned and it wasn't because of misogyny. They banned all face coverings in public places including helmets, masks and balaclavas because your face cannot be identified which is a security risk. I don't see a problem with this.

In fact there is talk of it happening here - BBC NEWS | UK | The woman at centre of veil case
British debate over veils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

6 men robbed a Selfridges in London wearing niqabs (non-Muslims though) and fled on motorbikes. Two of them went down for a total of 17 years for it yesterday. BBC News - Selfridges robbery: 'Men in burkas' in 'smash and grab' BBC News - Selfridges robbery: Smash-and-grab watch raid brothers jailed

I see Muslim women all the time wearing the full niqab, I don't really care. It's their choice (at the moment), however I completely support a ban on face covering in public in Britain, it's totally justified. I don't really care that it includes Muslims and if that makes me a racist then so be it.

First of all, I would just like to say that while I consider the Koran to be barbaric and anti-human, I consider to the Bible and the Torah to be just as bad if not worse. So, I am an equal opportunity anti-Abrahamic religion...ist.

Secondly, you accuse Vanilla of internalized mysogny, and yet muslim women who are wearing the Hijab according to cultural laws created and maintained by men are doing so of their own free will? What about the burka? Not internalized misogyny either?

I honestly don't believe anyone here has a great enough understanding of islamic culture to determine whether or not clothing laws are oppressive. That is going to depend on who you ask who is a part of that culture. Some women dislike it. Others really appreciate it.

Why do we turn everything into a black and white issue on this forum?

Nope bc I'm white and non cis, Vanilla and I are nothing alike except the fact we have the same kind of genitalia and skin colour.