It's hard to shout nuanced opinions.

This is just a silly argument. All you're saying is that you refuse to give an opinion on something because you'd probably feel bad for possibly coming down on a group that you feel is being bullied. You might as well refrain from commenting on male mysogny or homophobia, since you're not a man and can't understand male culture.

It's also pointless to discuss them, because they amount to "Everything is relative". :laughing:

truth




also i dont think i even said but i am very happy she got freed and let go!!!!

God forbid one both acknowledge the reality of moral relativism and the necessity of forcing ones morality upon others some times.

I'm queer and agender, I'm still affected by homophobia and misogyny. Just like everyone is. Just because I'm not AMAB doesn't mean I can't comment on misogyny and homophobia, both of which affect me.

Perhaps, but since you're not a man then can you make judgements on the men who perpetuate misogyny and homophobia? I've never seen you back down from insulting those who perpetrate it, but somehow I can't even comment on what I perceive to be culturally institutionalized misogyny?

^ yep, I will also call out anyone who identifies as female on misogyny and racism and homophobia.

I do recognise I may perpetuate problematic ideas since no one is completely free of prejudice (I'm still white and relatively middle class atm), but I don't publicly flagellate myself :laughing: that's just silly. However if someone were to call me out publicly on what they found to be racist, sexist, etc behaviour then I'd listen to what they had to say, definitely, unless they're speaking on something like transphobia and are cis.

You can definitely comment on misogyny, however you still should recognise that you are (from what I know, feel free to correct me bc I don't like to make assumptions on things like gender for obvious reasons) perceived as a cis-male and just as I am publicly perceived as being cis-female and heterosexual (I mainly **** men but I am romantically attached to women) and if you don't realise that I probably experience more sexism than you do, then you're perpetuating, not helping.

People are free to comment on whatever they want, lmao, that's the whole point, I'm not interested in taking away anyone's right to be a total *******, however I will not back down from an argument when it means checking someone on their racism, sexism, homophobia, or transphobia (etc etc etc....) however most people like to think I **** on Vanilla because she gets more attention than I do or she disagrees with me. This is false, I love women and my female friends mean the world to me, and that includes many of the girls on here especially (Meg, Steph, Amandria my actual soulmate and Boston wife, Kayleigh) and I consider them not to be just members of musicbanter but actual real life friends much like the people I used to hang out with before I voluntarily became a recluse. They are my friends because they are loyal, kind, compassionate people who treat people with respect even if they don't agree with them. Vanilla has no respect for me or anything to do with my life if she flippantly can joke about how "rape isn't always a bad thing" and not get called right the **** out on it. People like to think that I /make/ other people agree with me, but how condescending is it to think that grown women can't make their own goddamn decisions? All I do, in regards to women and musicbanter, is try to make it a safe place to talk about being a woman and women's experiences without it being through the male gaze or having it be scary, because no matter what, I will be there to rip anyone a new ******* who thinks it's okay to take a safe space away from people, and I don't give two ****s what any of you think of me for that either, as that already is clear enough. Do you think I honestly care that people think I'm a "dramatic bitch" because I don't let **** slide? No one says ****, so I do. People need to know that perpetuating these things is /not/ okay.

I shouldn't have to disclose my status as a rape victim to be taken seriously or to be told how to talk about my experiences. No one is ever entitled to that sort of information. Just like when I talk about my drug addiction and mental illness.

good lord, I curse so much, I can't even be bothered to edit that

When did people stop being allowed to not like other people without it being racist, or sexist, or homophobic? Sometimes people just go out of their way to be hated, and when others oblige, they are ecstatic because they get to point the finger and yell '-ist' and '-ic' words at someone. Since when did being in some sort of perceived minority put people on such a high ****ing pedestal that they get free reign to call everyone else whatever they want?

Sometimes people just suck. Most of the time, actually.

P.S. I was just in Dubai earlier this month. Quite a lovely place, despite the way it's been portrayed here in this thread. I would recommend it, especially if you're into architecture and shopping, they certainly have some of the best in the world on both accounts.

Who ever said you're not allowed to like other people?

Kind of the impression I got after reading through 9 pages of finger pointing and name calling because of people's simple disagreements about social dynamics and differences in culture. Pretty disappointing as this started off as an interesting topic.

You can like whoever you want and use your own reasons for liking people, I don't give a **** personally, I'm not about to force my morality onto other people, however I would rather not associate with people I find to be morally unsound. I don't give a **** what other people do.

However rape is a worldwide problem, as is misogyny and its not just Muslim countries that oppress women.

Yeah, for a very short while, I entertained the idea of sending the link to this thread to Marte along with a message to show my support .. but then it got MBed all over.

Of course Muslim countries aren't the only ones to oppress women. They're simply the best at it.

American culture is all about victim worship.

How's trolling working out for you these days?

tore im sorry but hip hop bunny is absolutely correct here. one of the most pathetic thing about this culture in my opinion isnt necessarily victim worship but the infatuation with trying to be the victim. i see it CONSTANTLY and those people are pathetic to me

im tying this in to what hip hop bunny said. people love goin out of their way to be hated so they can play the act of martyr. prod at the bull until it charges then whine about it charging is all it really comes down to. again, very pathetic

I'm not trolling.

Of course you would claim so.

You responded to CO with a quote without bringing up any of the points he made. You provided no argument while at the same time dismissing his. Instead of inviting to discussion, your own text was merely a statement which you probably figure many will find provocative.

You may not wanna troll in an obvious way - you prefer getting away with it - but it's still obvious you are trolling. I assume others see this and that's why they don't bother with a response.

Affirmative

Tore, please. I understand you're upset because I pointed out that your views, as stated in this thread, are racist. But, please, take a few moments and ask whose fault it is.

Anyways, in regards to Crash's post: in America we inundated with discussions on privilege, which is to say victim worship. Privilege is a pseudo-scientific concept, which is defined by this feminist as:

We see this is not scientific because it can not be tested nor disproven. It's an amorphous ideological blob which has infected popular culture and discourse in weird ways. A good example would be when a Mestizo named George Zimmerman shot a black kid named Trayvon, and that event transmogrified into a discussion on White Racism - because the Left is obsessed with victim worship.

On the Right, victim worship takes place in Church. Christianity is, especially the Protestant forms of it, victim worship it. Hence why a film about a guy getting crucified in gnarly fashion can become a box office hit.

We've seen this on the forum, too, as seen in Above's rather "unique" journal.

Again, good job walking the fine line of trolling. I think I'll just improve the musicbanter environment by adding you to my ignore list.

The fact that you're simultaneously criticizing liberal victim worship while falling back on the 'that's racist' defense when people criticize what they see as an unjust law is delightfully ironic.

I know a couple that live and work in Dubai and they think it's a great place. They've invited be a few times to go there, but no real interest as it's just too hot. On topic though, I think what's happened to this woman is just barbaric but sadly just one of those things, so the rest of the country and religion shouldn't be tarred with the same brush (even though I pretty much dislike the Muslim religion, but that's besides the point). I just think anybody going there, should be aware of the risk regarding certain aspects of life that we take for granted as being normal here in the west and not falling foul of the laws. It's no different for someone going to say Latin America and becoming a victim of a robbery and then expecting the same levels of justice that would be applied here in most of Europe. Whilst having no love of the Muslim religion, I do agree with DJ Chameleon (I think it was he) who made an earlier post stating the West's constant interfering in the Middle East and what goes on there, and the West's so called right to dictate to them.

Any support of Dubai is at a minimum passive support of slavery

http://i41.tinypic.com/rrkv11.gif

Astounding how reluctant people on this forum are to confronting their prejudices.

I'll be the first one to call Dubai out as the disgusting pit of horrors that it is but equating not hating it to supporting slavery is a bit of a stretch, especially as grouping the plight of the unfortunate underclass of the city together with actual real slavery that still goes on in the world today is a bit of a middle finger to the latter.

Well, if there's another better term for forcing labor without pay or realistic hope of leaving the country, I'm not aware of it. I mean that sincerely. That seems like defacto slavery to me

Prison Labor Booms As Unemployment Remains High; Companies Reap Benefits

????

Dubai is not the only place that has forced labour.

Of course what Tore was doing is racist. Morals and values are byproducts of culture, never independent. To call another society backward, to demand ones own government take action against it, all the while referencing ethnocentric concepts such as misogyny and democracy - that's racist. It reeks of the same idiotic propaganda and moralizing that preceded the colonizing of the Third World, the primary difference being that instead of doing it for Christ we're doing it for minority rights.

Get it John?

You know, you could probably use the same logic to defend black slavery. You can't really judge the slave owners, since they were doing what they felt was moral. If black people are inferior sub-humans, then they need to be led and taken care of. By their own moral code, slave owners were perfectly moral. They may be the same race as myself, but would I be wrong to judge their society, even if I might give the slave owners themselves some leeway, just by virtue of the fact that they lived in a society where slavery was morally allowable?

Batlord, I'd say the primary difference there is that slavery existed within the confines of a singular nation. The question of slavery, then, needed to be resolved as a nation can not operate with multiple moralities existent within its borders.

Since we're on the topic of slavery, you do realize that the Arab slave trade continued into the 1960s, right?

I'm not talking about how any possible issues in any muslim countries should be dealt with, but am I wrong in judging a society that operates under a moral system that I find repugnant? Whether we're talking about one society or multiple should make no difference.

I wasn't. How charming.

Oh, ok. Yeah, it's fine to judge them, but it's when judgment becomes combined with Government action that I get iffy.

Ah, so that's your point. I can probably agree with that. I'm not one to worry about intervening in another country's affairs, so I've never given this specific issue much thought in that regard. But, just off the bat, I'd have to agree with you. You can't stop a heroine addict from doing heroin, so at some point, you've just gotta let 'em do what they want, and hope they don't overdose before they come to their senses.

HHBH, clearly you have no idea what racism even means.

What, then, is meant by race?

I have never suggested that sharia laws or anything I've really criticized in this thread has anything to do with race. I don't think it has anything to do with race. Eugenics never entered into it. As a biologist, I am generally aware of when I think something is a property of biology or not and it is perfectly possible to criticize culture without criticizing biology. Why would you even think otherwise?

If anyone's being racist here, it is you, ironically. Because if you suggest that criticizing misogynist values is racist, then you claim that the biology of a particular race makes them more misogynist. Do you see the irony here?

:rolleyes:

Nonsense. What you're basically saying is that it's racist for westerners to adhere to their own culture's values - the very thing you're trying to defend other cultures for doing.

i think hip hop bunny is sayin westerners shouldnt try to adhere to their cultures (laws) in other countries tho

That's not the point. He's accusing people who call those laws backward or misogynist of racism. If they were laws in a western country, people would have no qualms about saying that about them. But because they're part of another culture suddenly it's not misogynist to charge women for their own rape, and to say that it is would be a suggestion of racial superiority? That's the same kind of hypersensitivity he was accusing western liberals of.