Marte Deborah Dalelv Rape Incident

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 07-22-2013, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

You know this kind of mentality is why westerners are hated so much in the first place. They want to come into a country and force their morality and culture onto others because of their own personal feelings/morals. I might not agree with the way they run things in their country but I don't feel like I have to be some freedom fighter on my high horse and go into their country to destroy their culture over it.

Exactly, just like with France outlawing the hijab.

Guybrush · 07-23-2013, 04:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione

Notice how you didn't give a shit when HHBH calls it racism.

Sexist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore to HHBH

You think that being sceptical towards culture, laws or morals equals racism?

That Marte got released probably has a lot to do with the ****storm of reactions it generated, here included, and for that I want to say thanks again to those who did something; complained about it somewhere publically, wrote a letter, signed a petition, shared it to your friends, etc. You all contributed to Marte's pardon.

The idea that we have to worry about our political correctness to the point where we can't discuss laws and values for fear of being perceived as racist is completely ridiculous to me. Dubais is doing their best to attract westerners, yet we have no right to complain about how we are treated there? And the reason is that doing so is racist? Claiming that is ignorant.

djchameleon and Hermione, you demonstrate a very rigid sort of us and them thinking; "they" being the muslims and "us" being non-muslims. In so doing, you make this a matter of groups and make that important. But I think there are plenty of muslims who would support Marte and who wishes for more gender equality, also in Dubais. And our western societies is part made up of muslims who have their place in your democracies, just like you guys do. Why make this a matter of race or groups when it's really about values? And when does not talking about a problem ever help?

edit :

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione

Exactly, just like with France outlawing the hijab.

By your logic and how you've just debated, shouldn't you say it's up to the people of France whether they want to perceive the hijab as misogynistic and ban it or not? That they have a right to do so if they want and that you should not complain about that?

Your post seems contradictory.

Trollheart · 07-23-2013, 04:47 AM

Considering that Marte is now released and that this thread seems to have descended into an argument about racism, sexism, misogyny and what seems to be a lot of name-calling and ill will, I would suggest it is now closed. It's served its purpose and I'm delighted Marte is free, but further discussion --- unless the title is changed and it becomes a basic thread about the above --- seems now pointless and counterproductive.

Just my suggestion to perhaps help calm things down.

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 07-23-2013, 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Considering that Marte is now released and that this thread seems to have descended into an argument about racism, sexism, misogyny and what seems to be a lot of name-calling and ill will, I would suggest it is now closed. It's served its purpose and I'm delighted Marte is free, but further discussion --- unless the title is changed and it becomes a basic thread about the above --- seems now pointless and counterproductive.

Just my suggestion to perhaps help calm things down.

no ****, it's called "intersectionality"

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-23-2013, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

The idea that we have to worry about our political correctness to the point where we can't discuss laws and values for fear of being perceived as racist is completely ridiculous to me. Dubais is doing their best to attract westerners, yet we have no right to complain about how we are treated there? And the reason is that doing so is racist? Claiming that is ignorant.

If we don't then why campaign to get the woman released

Surely if they've enforced their own law then it's just tough shit? (That's not agreeing or disagreeing with anyone either.)

But as far as how countries run themselves, it is not for you or I to say if the women in the Middle East are treated unfairly. That's for them to decide. Their customs, their culture, their business.

Saying that, Islam (and Sharia Law) isn't just a religion, it's an ideology. It covers everything from law, to banking, to politics. And it isn't just in practice in the Middle East either (44% Muslim where I live.) Sharia is there to be criticised.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hat€monger ?

Yes and I find them just as annoying too and we're free to criticise them.

Under muslim law we wouldn't

Correct.

Thousands rally in UK to demand end to anti-Islam speeches - thenews.com.pk

Quote:

Hazrat Peer Alauddin Siddiqui, who is a renowned Sufi scholar, told Geo News: “Thousands have come together to show peacefully to the western world that the production and promotion of a recent film insulting Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) has caused hurt to Muslims all over the world. We are a peaceful community and we will do everything to protect peace and respect for all on equal basis. It’s not fair that some people insult Islam everyday and preach hatred through their actions and words but the lack of legislation encourages such elements. We want to tell our government that we welcome debate and constructive criticism of our religion but insults are unacceptable and inflammatory language is contributing to the rise of extremism amongst youth in western countries where youth mistakenly believe that the West hates Islam and Muslims.”

They mention the film that came out in 2012 (I've seen a clip, it's absolutely awful but piss funny in places EDIT - found it - http://youtu.be/1g983qD_d5M), fair enough I can see why you'd get pissed off at that if you're a soft arse, but banning it? Take the infamous cartoons in 2005 for example, how many people lost their lives worldwide because of the barbaric show of intolerance?

And by 'preaching hate every day', they're referring to the EDL. Why should the EDL not be allowed to demonstrate lol?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trollheart

Considering that Marte is now released and that this thread seems to have descended into an argument about racism, sexism, misogyny and what seems to be a lot of name-calling and ill will, I would suggest it is now closed. It's served its purpose and I'm delighted Marte is free, but further discussion --- unless the title is changed and it becomes a basic thread about the above --- seems now pointless and counterproductive.

Just my suggestion to perhaps help calm things down.

Why? People are disagreeing but it's not exactly out of hand.

djchameleon · 07-23-2013, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

Why? People are disagreeing but it's not exactly out of hand.

Exactly, I don't see anything warranting this thread to be closed down or for anything to be calmed down. Sometimes threads in this section may get a be heated but it's not where near the level of needing to be closed yet.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-23-2013, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

By your logic and how you've just debated, shouldn't you say it's up to the people of France whether they want to perceive the hijab as misogynistic and ban it or not? That they have a right to do so if they want and that you should not complain about that?

Your post seems contradictory.

I agree.

However it wasn't just the hijab they banned and it wasn't because of misogyny. They banned all face coverings in public places including helmets, masks and balaclavas because your face cannot be identified which is a security risk. I don't see a problem with this.

In fact there is talk of it happening here - BBC NEWS | UK | The woman at centre of veil case
British debate over veils - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

6 men robbed a Selfridges in London wearing niqabs (non-Muslims though) and fled on motorbikes. Two of them went down for a total of 17 years for it yesterday. BBC News - Selfridges robbery: 'Men in burkas' in 'smash and grab' BBC News - Selfridges robbery: Smash-and-grab watch raid brothers jailed

I see Muslim women all the time wearing the full niqab, I don't really care. It's their choice (at the moment), however I completely support a ban on face covering in public in Britain, it's totally justified. I don't really care that it includes Muslims and if that makes me a racist then so be it.

The Batlord · 07-23-2013, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hermione

It's not "Islamic" law, but fundamentalist Islam. Guess who most people picture when you say "Muslim"? Brown people. You see a white woman in a hijab and you don't automatically run out and try to save her from an arranged marriage. However, you see a woman of colour in a Hijab and you think she must be oppressed when it's not even law to wear a Hijab in most places, but the woman is free to choose, as is her right.

First of all, I would just like to say that while I consider the Koran to be barbaric and anti-human, I consider to the Bible and the Torah to be just as bad if not worse. So, I am an equal opportunity anti-Abrahamic religion...ist.

Secondly, you accuse Vanilla of internalized mysogny, and yet muslim women who are wearing the Hijab according to cultural laws created and maintained by men are doing so of their own free will? What about the burka? Not internalized misogyny either?

Paedantic Basterd · 07-23-2013, 03:14 PM

I honestly don't believe anyone here has a great enough understanding of islamic culture to determine whether or not clothing laws are oppressive. That is going to depend on who you ask who is a part of that culture. Some women dislike it. Others really appreciate it.

Why do we turn everything into a black and white issue on this forum?

~~Sansa Stark~~ · 07-23-2013, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

First of all, I would just like to say that while I consider the Koran to be barbaric and anti-human, I consider to the Bible and the Torah to be just as bad if not worse. So, I am an equal opportunity anti-Abrahamic religion...ist.

Secondly, you accuse Vanilla of internalized mysogny, and yet muslim women who are wearing the Hijab according to cultural laws created and maintained by men are doing so of their own free will? What about the burka? Not internalized misogyny either?

Nope bc I'm white and non cis, Vanilla and I are nothing alike except the fact we have the same kind of genitalia and skin colour.

07-23-2013, 04:47 AM	#73 (permalink)
Trollheart Born to be mild Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: 404 Not Found Posts: 26,970	Considering that Marte is now released and that this thread seems to have descended into an argument about racism, sexism, misogyny and what seems to be a lot of name-calling and ill will, I would suggest it is now closed. It's served its purpose and I'm delighted Marte is free, but further discussion --- unless the title is changed and it becomes a basic thread about the above --- seems now pointless and counterproductive. Just my suggestion to perhaps help calm things down. __________________ Trollheart: Signature-free since April 2018

07-23-2013, 03:14 PM	#79 (permalink)
Paedantic Basterd Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 5,184	I honestly don't believe anyone here has a great enough understanding of islamic culture to determine whether or not clothing laws are oppressive. That is going to depend on who you ask who is a part of that culture. Some women dislike it. Others really appreciate it. Why do we turn everything into a black and white issue on this forum?