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-   -   What Did President Trump Do Now? (https://www.musicbanter.com/current-events-philosophy-religion/87986-what-did-president-trump-do-now.html)

riseagainstrocks 02-01-2017 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga (Post 1801902)
ANY belief system coupled with poverty and poor education can be taken advantage of.

The people there couldn't trust their government (since we've installed despot after despot in order to control the region) or the outside world (since everyone seems to want their oil). Who would you turn to? The only person who seems to be on your side and claims to have all the solutions. In this case, their religious leaders.

This right here is why terrorism exists, especially why it exists in 2017 in the Middle East and Eastern Africa. Poor countries, lack of government power to enforce contracts/too much government power abuse, and lack of exposure to outside ideas or culture. Islam, in isolation, isn't the driving force behind terrorism. If it was, we'd have so many more attacks in so many places. Islam is twisted, parsed, and manipulated by people with aspirations of power in this life and impressed on the young, the gullible, and the desperate. Point out a verse in the Quran calling for the deaths of unbelievers and I'll show you one in the Bible proscribing death for wearing poly-blend fabric.

Whether it's nationalism, racial hegemony, religious invocation, etc. all of these tribal mindsets, which as recently evolved creatures we're susceptible to, can trace their roots to the inculcation of the weak and the stupid (stupid as in 'not knowing', not a statement of intellectual capacity).

I recently finished a book by Brian Fishman (a counterterrorism fellow at International Security Program and former Combating Terrorism Center director at West Point) titled The Master Plan: ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the Jihadi Strategy for Final Victory. It was a fascinating read for many reasons but the last 3-4 pages or so should be passed around Capitol Hill. Think we have fake news in the States? Imagine what passes as news in authoritarian or semi-lawless areas of the world. Trump's complete lack of nuance fuels a wrongly held belief (although these days it's tipping into half) that America hates Islam. We don't give a damn about Islam. Much like we don't care about what any one person believes. Free expression - it's a glorious thing. But when Trump is quoted as saying "ban all Muslims" no matter the context he thinks it was in, it is blasted to all the poor, dispossessed, aimless, and hopeless youths in countries ravaged by Western meddling and local power squabbles and makes a compelling case for sticking it to the great Satan.

The language Trump uses is so un-nuanced (and this is me generously assuming that he truly has no problem with Muslims) that a casual Muslim observer in say, Indonesia, now thinks that it is American policy to exclude and possible persecute Muslims. Thus, this person is more susceptible to whispers of 'crusader invasions' and 'desecration of the holy land'. This travel ban was broad, preemptive, unreviewed, and as we've seen, unpopular. Trump claims he has a mandate for this action. Depends on which poll you read and how the question was posed. What this does show is that Americans have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it teaches. Look at Catholicism in the 1500's. Look at Protestantism in in 1650-1750 in New England. And if you're thinking "well duh, but Christians grew up" I'd ask you to look at Mecca, Medina, Baghdad, Istanbul at those same times - centers of civilization, learning, culture.

Long post and sorry if it's a bit ranty. I'm pretty convinced that most Americans know about Islam solely through bin Laden's propaganda videos and the bad guys in True Lies. But hey, they're brown and write in squiggles, so why should we try to understand their 1300 year old culture.

Chula Vista 02-01-2017 02:00 PM

^^^^^

Outstanding post. Watch Bourdain's episode where he visits Saudi Arabia to get a real perspective.


Psy-Fi 02-01-2017 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1801954)
^^^^^

Outstanding post. Watch Bourdain's episode where he visits Saudi Arabia to get a real perspective.


Looked like a bit of confusion from his Saudi host when he said "I'm blown away." :laughing:

DwnWthVwls 02-01-2017 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga (Post 1801902)
1. My point was this fundamentalist ideology exists in EVERY RELIGION. This gets to my belief that religion in general needs to fade away, but that's another discussion. There's a sleeping dragon waiting behind every person with a belief system that does not require proof but does require absolute devotion.

Amen. A bit of an extreme take on religious people, but overall I agree with you.

duga 02-01-2017 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks (Post 1801939)
This right here is why terrorism exists, especially why it exists in 2017 in the Middle East and Eastern Africa. Poor countries, lack of government power to enforce contracts/too much government power abuse, and lack of exposure to outside ideas or culture. Islam, in isolation, isn't the driving force behind terrorism. If it was, we'd have so many more attacks in so many places. Islam is twisted, parsed, and manipulated by people with aspirations of power in this life and impressed on the young, the gullible, and the desperate. Point out a verse in the Quran calling for the deaths of unbelievers and I'll show you one in the Bible proscribing death for wearing poly-blend fabric.

Whether it's nationalism, racial hegemony, religious invocation, etc. all of these tribal mindsets, which as recently evolved creatures we're susceptible to, can trace their roots to the inculcation of the weak and the stupid (stupid as in 'not knowing', not a statement of intellectual capacity).

I recently finished a book by Brian Fishman (a counterterrorism fellow at International Security Program and former Combating Terrorism Center director at West Point) titled The Master Plan: ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the Jihadi Strategy for Final Victory. It was a fascinating read for many reasons but the last 3-4 pages or so should be passed around Capitol Hill. Think we have fake news in the States? Imagine what passes as news in authoritarian or semi-lawless areas of the world. Trump's complete lack of nuance fuels a wrongly held belief (although these days it's tipping into half) that America hates Islam. We don't give a damn about Islam. Much like we don't care about what any one person believes. Free expression - it's a glorious thing. But when Trump is quoted as saying "ban all Muslims" no matter the context he thinks it was in, it is blasted to all the poor, dispossessed, aimless, and hopeless youths in countries ravaged by Western meddling and local power squabbles and makes a compelling case for sticking it to the great Satan.

The language Trump uses is so un-nuanced (and this is me generously assuming that he truly has no problem with Muslims) that a casual Muslim observer in say, Indonesia, now thinks that it is American policy to exclude and possible persecute Muslims. Thus, this person is more susceptible to whispers of 'crusader invasions' and 'desecration of the holy land'. This travel ban was broad, preemptive, unreviewed, and as we've seen, unpopular. Trump claims he has a mandate for this action. Depends on which poll you read and how the question was posed. What this does show is that Americans have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it teaches. Look at Catholicism in the 1500's. Look at Protestantism in in 1650-1750 in New England. And if you're thinking "well duh, but Christians grew up" I'd ask you to look at Mecca, Medina, Baghdad, Istanbul at those same times - centers of civilization, learning, culture.

Long post and sorry if it's a bit ranty. I'm pretty convinced that most Americans know about Islam solely through bin Laden's propaganda videos and the bad guys in True Lies. But hey, they're brown and write in squiggles, so why should we try to understand their 1300 year old culture.

Well said. I've also tried to throw Trump some benefit of the doubt and assume he doesn't actually hate Muslims - but there is a reason we leave diplomacy to the diplomats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1801970)
Amen. A bit of an extreme take on religious people, but overall I agree with you.

Of course. I was just using his language to make a point. I doubt there's a sleeping dragon behind my poor old grandma.

elphenor 02-01-2017 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1801868)
:laughing:

Pretty much

Anteater 02-01-2017 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by riseagainstrocks (Post 1801939)
This right here is why terrorism exists, especially why it exists in 2017 in the Middle East and Eastern Africa. Poor countries, lack of government power to enforce contracts/too much government power abuse, and lack of exposure to outside ideas or culture. Islam, in isolation, isn't the driving force behind terrorism. If it was, we'd have so many more attacks in so many places. Islam is twisted, parsed, and manipulated by people with aspirations of power in this life and impressed on the young, the gullible, and the desperate. Point out a verse in the Quran calling for the deaths of unbelievers and I'll show you one in the Bible proscribing death for wearing poly-blend fabric.

Whether it's nationalism, racial hegemony, religious invocation, etc. all of these tribal mindsets, which as recently evolved creatures we're susceptible to, can trace their roots to the inculcation of the weak and the stupid (stupid as in 'not knowing', not a statement of intellectual capacity).

I recently finished a book by Brian Fishman (a counterterrorism fellow at International Security Program and former Combating Terrorism Center director at West Point) titled The Master Plan: ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the Jihadi Strategy for Final Victory. It was a fascinating read for many reasons but the last 3-4 pages or so should be passed around Capitol Hill. Think we have fake news in the States? Imagine what passes as news in authoritarian or semi-lawless areas of the world. Trump's complete lack of nuance fuels a wrongly held belief (although these days it's tipping into half) that America hates Islam. We don't give a damn about Islam. Much like we don't care about what any one person believes. Free expression - it's a glorious thing. But when Trump is quoted as saying "ban all Muslims" no matter the context he thinks it was in, it is blasted to all the poor, dispossessed, aimless, and hopeless youths in countries ravaged by Western meddling and local power squabbles and makes a compelling case for sticking it to the great Satan.

The language Trump uses is so un-nuanced (and this is me generously assuming that he truly has no problem with Muslims) that a casual Muslim observer in say, Indonesia, now thinks that it is American policy to exclude and possible persecute Muslims. Thus, this person is more susceptible to whispers of 'crusader invasions' and 'desecration of the holy land'. This travel ban was broad, preemptive, unreviewed, and as we've seen, unpopular. Trump claims he has a mandate for this action. Depends on which poll you read and how the question was posed. What this does show is that Americans have a FUNDAMENTAL misunderstanding of what Islam is and what it teaches. Look at Catholicism in the 1500's. Look at Protestantism in in 1650-1750 in New England. And if you're thinking "well duh, but Christians grew up" I'd ask you to look at Mecca, Medina, Baghdad, Istanbul at those same times - centers of civilization, learning, culture.

Long post and sorry if it's a bit ranty. I'm pretty convinced that most Americans know about Islam solely through bin Laden's propaganda videos and the bad guys in True Lies. But hey, they're brown and write in squiggles, so why should we try to understand their 1300 year old culture.

Beautiful post. One of the best I've seen on this thread so far.

One minor point: Christianity, rationally speaking, doesn't relate much back to anything in the Old Testament since it predates Jesus's birth. The Qur'an is a different story: Mohammad and his life is the ultimate ideal, not Jesus's. That's where you start seeing fundamental differences in ideology.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 04:44 PM

My big issue with the modern, liberal conception of Islam is that so many people claim that the worst parts come from the Hadith (and other **** I don't know) as if that and other things have no importance simply because they aren't from the Quran. But if the Hadith is important to modern fundamentalist Islam then does it really matter if it isn't a part of the actual Quran? Like, so many ****ty parts of Christianity may or may not come directly from the Bible, but if they don't then does it matter if those ****ty parts are still believed?

Frownland 02-01-2017 04:49 PM

The hadiths are controversial as to whether or not Muhammad actually said them. The Quran is universally accepted by the Islamic community as legit (well, generally; there's a lot of fuss about translations and all that).

The Batlord 02-01-2017 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1802038)
The hadiths are controversial as to whether or not Muhammad actually said them. The Quran is universally accepted by the Islamic community as legit (well, generally; there's a lot of fuss about translations and all that).

Yeah, no, I know that full well, but how much of the Muslim world recognizes the Hadiths? It's kind of important the percentage of those who do and don't. If the Hadiths are ignored by a significant majority then it's whatevs, but if a large enough portion of Islam consider the Hadiths to be at least important then saying that they're not exactly 100% canon is kind of pointless.

Frownland 02-01-2017 04:58 PM

Depends on what you consider accepting it, but I'm not sure if I could get any numbers for you. I think they're universally "accepted" but the level of dedication to them and their perceived credibility ranges quite a bit. I hope that my nonanswer is satisfactory.

Chula Vista 02-01-2017 04:59 PM

The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever.

And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1802041)
The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever.

And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not.

I'd way rather deal with Christians who cherry pick and aren't Westboro Baptist types than relatively logical people who are lazy Christians. The former probably have personality disorders while the latter are just kind of lazy. Why would you want to deal with the former?

Chula Vista 02-01-2017 05:10 PM

If you believe in God then the Bible is infallible. Old and New testaments. Read the bible and have your mind turned inside out. Most of that **** is insane.

Any world leader, politician, or court appointee who leans on that crap is not worthy of telling me how I should live my life. Or telling my daughter what she can or can't do. **** that ****.

elphenor 02-01-2017 05:15 PM

Most people are culturally religious

File it under the same thing as Gun worship and free market worship

It's ideas that form their identity, but to what degree they honestly believe it wildly varies

It's true for Islamic countries as well

The Batlord 02-01-2017 05:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1802045)
If you believe in God then the Bible is infallible. Old and New testaments. Read the bible and have your mind turned inside out. Most of that **** is insane.

Any world leader, politician, or court appointee who leans on that crap is not worthy of telling me how I should live my life. Or telling my daughter what she can or can't do. **** that ****.

I mean, yeah, but why would you rather deal with a Christian fundamentalist who believes the Old Testament than a cherry picker who doesn't?

Pet_Sounds 02-01-2017 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1802041)
The old testament of the bible is some of the scariest **** ever.

And I absolutely hate Christians that cherry pick. Either the complete bible is your tome or it's not.

From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Christianity, I thought the New Testament negated the Old Testament.

Frownland 02-01-2017 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chula Vista (Post 1802045)
If you believe in God then the Bible is infallible. Old and New testaments.

I know a ****load of theology scholars (also Christians) who disagree with that. It's the majority of them, actually.

elphenor 02-01-2017 05:27 PM

Like if you live in rural Texas your community revolves around the church

So it's important that you have faith in it because there is nothing else but getting bored enough to shoot up bath salts


I'm just spouting off but idk that secularists really make an attempt to understand the religious they just assume they all have a brain deficiency

The Batlord 02-01-2017 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds (Post 1802050)
From my (admittedly limited) understanding of Christianity, I thought the New Testament negated the Old Testament.

I've never seen anything that laid out what still counted from the Old Testament and what was now bogus. I don't think there's really a definitive interpretation that combines the New and Old Testaments in a way that isn't stupid.

Frownland 02-01-2017 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802060)
I've never seen anything that laid out what still counted from the Old Testament and what was now bogus. I don't think there's really a definitive interpretation that combines the New and Old Testaments in a way that isn't stupid.

I think the golden rule undoes most of the Old Testament.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1802062)
I think the golden rule undoes most of the Old Testament.

I think that's bull****.

Pet_Sounds 02-01-2017 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802060)
I've never seen anything that laid out what still counted from the Old Testament and what was now bogus. I don't think there's really a definitive interpretation that combines the New and Old Testaments in a way that isn't stupid.

Copied/pasted from here:

Quote:

Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you. A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. —John 13:33–35 (KJV)
Unfortunately, that "new commandment" seems to come with a lot of extraneous baggage.

Frownland 02-01-2017 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802067)
I think that's bull****.

Well of course, but that's the line of reasoning that many Christians use when ignoring the old testament.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 05:58 PM

But is there a legit dividing line between the old and new testament, cause otherwise it all just sounds like a mish mash of nonsense.

Frownland 02-01-2017 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802074)
But is there a legit dividing line between the old and new testament, cause otherwise it all just sounds like a mish mash of nonsense.

Jebus>archaic law disguised as religious texts

Pretty sure that's the line.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 06:05 PM

And is there anything that makes Islam better?

Frownland 02-01-2017 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802079)
And is there anything that makes Islam better?

They have Sufis, who have some seriously amazing art and culture, but that's about it.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1802081)
They have Sufis, who have some seriously amazing art and culture, but that's about it.

And Christianity doesn't? I'm sorry, but while Islam in the Renaissance gave us some great ****, it's otherwise just as much garbage as any other major religion. I understand the desire to desire to defend muslims, but their religion doesn't sound any less garbage than anyone else's, and everyone's religion is basically garbage.

Cuthbert 02-01-2017 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802084)
And Christianity doesn't? I'm sorry, but while Islam in the Renaissance gave us some great ****, it's otherwise just as much garbage as any other major religion. I understand the desire to desire to defend muslims, but their religion doesn't sound any less garbage than anyone else's, and everyone's religion is basically garbage.

mad ting

The Batlord 02-01-2017 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Man like Monkey (Post 1802086)
mad ting

****you, sober boy

Frownland 02-01-2017 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802084)
And Christianity doesn't? I'm sorry, but while Islam in the Renaissance gave us some great ****, it's otherwise just as much garbage as any other major religion. I understand the desire to desire to defend muslims, but their religion doesn't sound any less garbage than anyone else's, and everyone's religion is basically garbage.

Christianity does not have Sufis, no.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1802088)
Christianity does not have Sufis, no.

Isn't that just a very obvious technicality?

Frownland 02-01-2017 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802092)
Isn't that just a very obvious technicality?

Yes, but I'd go as far as to say that they don't have a Sufi equivalent that's large enough to matter as well.

Also note that I'm just answering your questions, not fulfilling my desire to desire to defend Islam.

The Batlord 02-01-2017 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1802096)
Yes, but I'd go as far as to say that they don't have a Sufi equivalent that's large enough to matter as well.

Also note that I'm just answering your questions, not fulfilling my desire to desire to defend Islam.

And unfortunately I don't care enough to pursue this. Damn beer.

Frownland 02-01-2017 06:41 PM



Sufis rule.

elphenor 02-01-2017 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1802084)
And Christianity doesn't? I'm sorry, but while Islam in the Renaissance gave us some great ****, it's otherwise just as much garbage as any other major religion. I understand the desire to desire to defend muslims, but their religion doesn't sound any less garbage than anyone else's, and everyone's religion is basically garbage.

Not anymore garbage than the clothes we choose to wear based on culture

Islam didn't give us great **** but it isn't responsible for bad **** either

DwnWthVwls 02-01-2017 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1802099)
Islam didn't give us great **** but it isn't responsible for bad **** either

Now I get at least part of the reason you don't like Hitchens.

elphenor 02-01-2017 06:51 PM

You can have two Muslims in the same room who will agree on absolutely nothing except Allah is the one true God

There are far far more harmful cultural quirks than religion which is just kind of silly

DwnWthVwls 02-01-2017 06:57 PM

Religions are as responsible for good stuff and bad stuff just like people. I am :confused: by your broad absolute statement.


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