I would say if that one band defined the sound of it then I could see why that would happen.
However as I said the bands you mentioned were influences among many influences.How many punk bands do you know sound like The Velvet Undergroud or MC5 or The Stooges

Answer none.

Right, they were considered Avant Garde because there was no name for what they were. And the New York Dolls '73 debut is far more Punk than anything McClaren did with them. I don't even see why you bothered to bring him up, when they'd already released a classic Punk album before he came along.

So you're admitting that the "seminal" Punk band was just pre-packaged Punk, the very thing Punk supposedly rallies against?

Only the Pistols didn`t

They said from the start they were in it for the money.

Punk album?

It has more in common with the Rolling Stones than it does with punk

Attachment 1455

Right attitude, wrong look...not very punk is it, more like the Glitter Band.

http://www.d-filed.com/stones69.jpg
Just a bit less make up really

No, but all the best post-punk bands were british. :D

All we had were Husker Du and The Minutemen.

And punk did not start in the US, if you could name one band who has a significant amount of impact on that genre, it would be The Who, every punk band owes it to The Who and every major punk band ever has credited them as a major influence, and The Clash and The Sex Pistols are widely accepted as the greatest punk bands along with The Ramones, and only The Ramones compare when it comes to overall influence and everything else...The UK pretty much created heavy metal and prog, and punk movements began in US and UK around the same time, so giving the UK no credit for punk whatsoever reveals the ineptness of your point of view.

Plus all these other genres you are giving america credit for, like alternative, grunge and indie were influenced a great deal by british rock music.

Now now , you had the Gun Club , Mission Of Burma , and I guess you could throw in Pere Ubu & Talking Heads in there too if you`re being generous.

But werent The Talking Heads around when punk pretty much started?...I never really considered them post punk.

Well thats why I said if i`m feeling generous

Sometimes I hate this forum. I had a huge response I wrote and then I had to sign in and then it erased my post. Pissed off. In summary.

Right Track. Was goofing around with you, get off the defensive.

Emo. Started in Washington DC. Americans definitely do emo and indie-emo better.
Husker Du.
Sonic Youth.
The Pixies.
Rites of Spring (considered to be the founders of emo)
Embrace.
JSBX.
Weezer (who had Pinkerton - the quintessential emo album of the 90's)
were a few of the bands mentioned.

Ska. The only time the UK had the Americans trumped in Ska was in the Second Wave of Ska, commonly called Two-Tone. We had ska before you did and thats the only reason the UK had something to build off of. Case and point - the Skatalites(this is the first wave existant in our Cajun region). Third Wave ska is completely dominated by our West Coast ska bands and further strengthened by the few greats coming from the East Coast.

Techno (and all of the other electronic sub genres you mentioned. Girlband pop is not a real genre so) Was invented in Detroit, Michigan - and existed about 10 years before the Brits got ahold of it and started using it. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techno
also - since you have trouble finding artists that do these genres...
See:http://www.ishkur.com/music/#

Country: Good call. England has no need for this. It is quite obvious that you folks have no idea what country is about anymore since you still use the horses on the open plain kind of thing - which says something about it's popularity over there- so fair enough.

Well, OK, that is a cliche of the image of country over here, but generally the lyrical content and theme of modern country music is very rooted in American culture and too far removed from the typical British experience to interest us. It doesn't generally have a gripping beat, or novel sounds to grab your attention, so it rests upon the lyics and the tune. Most of the lyrics don't resonate cross-culturally, so the only real selling point over here is the pretty tunes and that just isn't enough to make it popular with most people.

You love Wikipedia don't you! Don't stop using it, you seem to be good at finding the info and its certainly making this discussion better for somebody actually getting information instead of just spounting their mouths off.

I've actually written a lot of the major music articles at Wiki, contributed heavily to the punk, rock, jazz, pages... written tons of the sub genre pages. And yes I DO love it. Most of the stuff I know already, but I definitely check it to make sure my facts are right. And sometimes if I link a wiki article, it's one I've written.

And country... it doesn't do a lot for Americans above the Mason-Dixon line either... so I know how you feel!

Huh? Pretty much all the original Ska bands were from Jamaica , as i`ve explained the UK has a large population of Jamaican immigrants who bought it over & made it popular in the UK along with the Mods who embraced it too. So no , you didn`t have Ska before us at all.

Even if it was invented in Detroit most techno i`m aware of originated in Europe based on what Kraftwerk started.In fact New Order were taking inspiration from Italian house music in 1981/82 which led in turn to Blue Monday being created.But even so it was the Brits who ran with it.Dance music became one of the biggest genres here in the 90s thanks to the likes of The Prodigy , The Chemical Brothers , Fatboy Slim , Orbital , Basement Jaxx , Underworld , The Orb , & Death In Vegas. I can`t think of any American dance acts who came close to even challenging them.

We were joking , the fact is like I said it`s American folk music , ours is different.There`s no need for us to do country music.

Check that band I pointed out.. the Skatalites. Jamaican immigrants in America - ska - before any of the british ska. Look it up... I'll use wiki again... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ska
have a sit down and give it a twice over.

Thats all fine and dandy - but you change the focus of the argument to better fit your point. In order to combat doing the same thing - I gave you 2 links to go check out and read over. They are non - biased links and they provide much more insight than your popular dance bands. You also said "biggest genres here" - great, on your island it was big. A big genre in Texas would be - technically - a bigger genre than a genre in your whole country, if we are talking numbers. Because they are "big" in your mother country doesn't make it better.

I know. I laughed.

I`d rather go by their official biograpy.....

The Skatalites Biographical Information
In Jamaica in the mid-50's, a fledgling recording industry saw the birth of what became known as Ska. Created by fusing Boogie-Woogie Blues, R+B, Jazz, Mento, Calypso and African rythyms, Ska became the first truly Jamaican music and by the 60's all the vocalist were swarming to the studios to record their songs to this infectious new beat. Bob Marley, Peter Tosh, Toots and the Maytals, Jimmy Cliff, Alton Ellis, Ken Boothe are just a few of the names who came to record this new music, which coincided with the whole island's excitement about Jamaica's independence in 1962. The core musicians playing on most of these sessions saw the opportunity to play this music live to the public.Tommy McCook, Rolando Alphonso, Johnny Moore, Lester Sterling, Don Drummond, Lloyd Knibb, Lloyd Brevett, Jerry Haynes, and Jackie Mittoo began working together in 1963 and formed The Ska-talites in May 1964.

Spring 1964
The Skatalites record their first LP at Studio One in Kingston, Ska Authentic, and tour the island as the creators of Ska. Their recordings for various producers rule the airwaves, stations JBC and RJR, that is. Foremost among their producers were; Clement 'Sir Coxsone' Dodd, Arthur 'Duke' Reid, Cecil 'Prince Buster' Campbell, Vincent 'King' Edwards, Justin 'Phillip' Yap, Leslie Kong, Lindon Pottinger,Sonya Pottinger and Vincent 'Randy' Chin. The Skatalites led sessions with all the top artists and helped to break young talents such as Delroy Wilson, Desmond Dekker, The Wailers, Lee Perry, etc.

Fall 1964
Don Drummond's composition, "Man In The Street", enters the Top 10 in the UK. Trombonist Drummond is not only the Skatalites busiest composer, but the most prolific in all of Ska, with at least 200 tunes to his name by 1965.

Sorry , don`t see the U.S. mentioned there anywhere



I`m not changing my focus at all , I said from the start things start off in the US & the UK works off that and moves forward with them, i`d say that the UK dance scene is a perfect example of that.And I think you`ll find a good handful of those bands mentioned had a lot of success outside the UK too.

Sonic Youth are emo??...O_O....And americans do emo better?...Last time i checked there is no UK emo scene...However, arent many emo bands influenced by UK bands such as The Cure, Joy Division, Echo And The Bunnymen, Gang Of Four, Siouxsie & the Banshees and The Smiths?

Shouldnt Jamacia be taking credit for all this?

What?....Technos history is much more complicated than you make it out, the template for techno is electronic music of various styles...Electronic musics history can can go way back to Krautrock bands like Kraftwerk and Neu!, we wouldnt have techno without them.

Ok we take country, but DontRunMeOver is right.

for dance, i don't know where these are from, well not all of them:
Dj amouro
smile.dk
akira yamaoko
DJ sammy
blumenchen
DJ taka
scorcio
Naoki
and others...

I didn't type very clearly - so I see where the misinterpretation was made... I didn't say - or mean to say - that the Skatalites were from America or American - I was merely pointing out their Jamaican years, and then went on to connect them with our Jamaican immigrants in the cajun country. So, go back to that link and read again where ska started.

Our New Orleans Jamaicans had a ska scene in New Orleans and lower Mississippi in the 1950s.

You will also find that ska was started in Jamaica through the American influence.

The credibility of your argument stops here... that's why I gave you those links to check out like I did, so we could both be with a same amount of information. Those links give a comprehensive and thorough guide to Electronic music.

Yes. The UK Dance scene. It is the UK Dance scene.

If we break into a dance discussion, I'm afraid hell would break loose - dance is so much a wordly thing with influences coming from everywhere you can think of.

BOO BOO-
So I don't know if you went to those links or not - it explains where I'm coming from - here we go...

Sonic Youth - influenced the indie-emo scene, notice I put indie-emo in my "Emo" statement.

Perhaps they were influenced by those UK bands, but that doesn't mean that they were entirely influenced by them... so that point is kind of moot, don't you think? Plus influence isn't analagous with "Greatness" - yet we continue to look at them like they are the same, myself included.

Shouldnt Jamaica be accredited with this?
Yes. But this is UK v US thread. So we talk about who does it better.

Techno- The links I gave you include the German influences.

Country has been dealt with.

Generally. I think a thread like this is absurd, but I always get sucked into them. I think versus threads lead away from general discussion and sets the stage for prideful competition. It also leads to sacrificing some beliefs in order to make a point. It's somewhat nauseating. I think my first post here (which I was in agreeance with someone else who made the same point) still stands. We both do different things well - and I don't think music should be a competitive thing... it should just be here to be enjoyed. I love British music. I love American music. Why should I be compelled to turn them against each other?

Where did I say that Ska wasn`t influenced by American artists?

You didn`t say New Orleans had Ska , you said the U.S. did. Big difference.
A few immigrants in one city does not mean the U.S. can lay claim to it.

I said in my post that the UK became the first to embrace it as a country , nothing in your sources contradicts that at all.As I keep saying the UK takes influences & builds on it.The Jamaican ska acts came over to the UK where they got their audience which in turn led to 2-tone , which was all British. That in turn led the the American ska bands of today.
As Boo Boo said the Jamaicans should lay credit to Ska , but the fact is it came to a bigger audience with it`s success in the UK.

And please tell me where the credibility on my arguement on dance music fails.

You have to remember the continental size of the US. Our Louisiana/Southern Mississippi is almost as big as your country. New Orleans is the biggest city in Louisiana. It is not the same as when Britain gets a new style of music - and the US does. We are a humongous country. And I said that the US (New Orleans being a part of the US, and I also pointed out specifically "our cajun country") had Ska first. We are closer to Jamaica, it's no wonder that we would get the immediate immigrants and subsequently the music scene.

I'm responding to like 2 -3 people per post, I wasn't referring to you in this case.

But if Ska did have any sort of impact in the U.S. there would be American ska bands in the late 60s & 70s , now i`m no expert on the genre but I can`t think of a single one.Those Jamaican immigrants in in New Orleans may have started there , but the fact remains they were born in Jamaica & returned there to record & play. And like I said , found success in the UK and spawned the genre there.

It`s pointless to bring up population all the time , Just because the U.S. is bigger. Do you know what the total number of album sales in the UK was last year?
It was 237 million

Total album sales in the U.S. last year - 666 million

Even despite the huge population difference the uk sells more than a third of the total number of album sales of the U.S. So in my book that means an artist only has to sell 3 albums in the U.S. for every one he sells in the U.K. to be a success over there.

I wasn't merely speculating about population. At the time it would have been harder to spread new music around such a big area than it would your country. It's not opinion, that's fact... it's common logic. With the same hose it would take longer to fill a swimming pool up with water than it would a bathtub.

Album sales nowadays are not the definition of "success" - so it's not the same thing.

The genre was spawned in Jamaica due to American influence. America had ska before England in our cajun country. Ska found it's way across the pond and was popular in England. Ska came back to America - popular, and then America reworked it. And now ska is almost completely dominated by American bands.

There ya go. Ska.

I'm tired of this roundabout thread. Each of us have too much pride to allow any admittance or give any ground - it's pointless. That being said - I'm outta here. I'd be glad to talk about this sans competitive nature!

No Doubt bringing ska to the forefront? Forefront of what, MTV & radio play? Did you forget about Madness?

I don't agree that Weezer's album was a quitessential 90s emo album. The 90s was repetitive and ****ty produced screamo bands and the last remains of decent hardcore that didn't have cheese metal riffs.

Boo Boo, those bands influenced a lot of the bands we talk about in the indie forum, but not so much emo bands. Most of that was supposed to be mid-late 80s hardcore punk bands.

And Sonic Youth and The Pixies aren't indie emo, I'm not sure what you were trying to say there.

Edit: It's also not fair to give the U.S. any credit (mention) for ska/reggae. It might have had a bigger market here before Britain, but c'mon. Let's not forget the REAL roots.

Ska Officianados (authors, musical historians) have accredited Ska's birth as the Jamaican interpretation of American Jazz and Big Band music and Ska was born as a response to the American influences, so you're argument is with them. I haven't said anything about Reggae being started in the US.

Sometimes I'm not very articulate. The Pixies were alternative. Sonic Youth was also alternative at the timie, but Daydream Nation - their best album - was generally accepted as an indie hit - and one of the best album's of the decade. Both of these bands had huge influences on the groups of today, and this is the stuff that influenced the playing styles of many emo groups and indie groups that we know. Because they grew up listening to it.

Alternative didn't mean the same back then as it does now. It was merely a term used to describe music that wasn't mainstream. Indie, before the populace bastardized it, and turned it into a genre... meant the same thing - but it took the place of alt because alt had turned into a genre.

Aaargh! That statement makes me cry!

Husker Du
Minutemen
Pere Ubu
Suicide
Mission of Burma
The entire No Wave scene
Sonic Youth
Big Black
Swans
Devo
The Cramps
Half Japanese

and probably more.

It's not that I'm denying that the British didn't have a ****load of amazing post-punk bands, but you just looked over a ton of my favorite bands, and I couldn't just let that go.

We're talking about ska and reggae though, not jazz. I agree with what the historians (?) or whatever say, but the Americans still shouldn't take any mentionable credit for that music in this thread, that's my opinion. It is kind of interesting though, one of the most influential bands, The Specials, is from Britain. Most of the U.S. third wave pisses me off, but there are a few select bands that keep it traditional, that's all I care about.

Yeah but then again, anyone with any appreciation for music was listening to the Pixies and Sonic Youth at one point. :)

Yes, but most genre's get 'bastardized' over time. Punk, emo, hardcore, ska...it almost seems like a natural process. There is a difference though. Indie seems to cover slightly more different styles than the term alternative did back in the 80s. Ahhh, I explained it better in the indie education thread.

You have the most bullshit argument.
Who cares if emo bands are influenced by English bands, that isnt the point. The point is, that the United States does emo music better.

Using your logic to completely deflate your argument about The Beatles greatness, and the fact that they are British.

'Weren't the Beatles inspired by US bands such as Elvis Presly, Little Richard, Buddy Holly and The Crickets, and Chuck Berry?'

You only use that logic when it suits your argument, but then claim it isnt a valid argument when someone uses it to refute your point. Which is why I have 0 respect for you.

hmmmm.....right, this suggestion may be a little drug induced and a little misspelled, but thats ok. maybe, in order to s4etlle this you should list out all genres worth mentioning and give a point to whatever place does that genre better, place with most points wins, break it down rather than just saying music, keep track of each little arguement over each genre much eaqsier...

Post punk?....I wouldnt consider Sonic Youth post punk unless every other alternative rock band at the time is post punk, and that would make U2 post punk as well. :laughing:

Suicide were more along the lines of New Wave, but either way they were around since the late 70s when punk was still a new thing...And i thought they were british, guess i was wrong. :confused:

I would consider The Cramps to be punk, just punk, plain and simple.

And i f*cking hate Devo, but whatever floats your boat man. :)

Sonic Youth's first three albums went from No Wave post-punk to an almost goth post-punk on Evol.

Both post-punk and new wave were phenomena that didn't occur until after punk, but bands like Television and Suicide weren't punk but laid the blueprints for both post-punk and new wave, so I don't really know how you would classify them. But Suicide, in my opinion, was much too abrasive and "punkish" for new wave.

I think The Cramps definetely pushed the borders of "punk," but I don't really feel like arguing over genres there.

As for Devo, their first album was good.

I don't really see the comparison between Sonic Youth and U2 on any level, but in any case, Pere Ubu is one of my top 5 favorite bands ever so that gives US post-punk a lot of credit in my opinion.

I wouldn't. I'd say psychobilly or rockabilly.

But hey, we're all getting anal over the little things, the way I see it, a lot of great bands are being discussed in this thread.

Ok, i take back what i said about post punk, mkay?

We have been discussing nothing but indie and punk the whole time, there are other genres out there.

Metal for example....We have bands like Metallica, Slayer, Megadeth and Pantera...But the UK pretty much invented metal, and they had Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden, Judas Priest, Motorhead, etc...All of whom were very important to the development of metal as a serious genre.

And of course, PROG...Thats probably one genre where the US dosent even touch the UK...They had King Crimson, Yes, Pink Floyd, ELP, Gentle Giant, Genesis, Jethro Tull, Van Der Graaf Generator, The Mahavishnu Orchestra, Uriah Heep, Renaissance, Camel, The Moody Blues, Hawkwind, The Strawbs, Caravan, Traffic, Gryphon, Quintessence, Kate Bush, Hatfield And The North, Soft Machine, Captain Beyond, Jade Warrior, Family, Greenslade, Khan, Egg, Supersister, Babe Ruth, High Tide, Barclay James Harvest, Ozric Tentacles, Purcupine Tree and Radiohead.

What do we have?...Hmm, Frank Zappa, Happy The Man, Captain Beefheart, Mars Volta, Primus, Tool, Mr Bungle, Buckethead, Symphony X, Queensryche, umm............Dream Theater?

In fact, there are tons of talented prog bands from around the world, including France, Italy, Germany, Sweden, Greece, Finland, Poland, Belguim, Hungary, Norway, Netherlands, Spain, Yugoslavia, Japan, Mexico, Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Canada and Israel...We got to give them some credit too. :)

How about Classical/Avant-Garde?

The US has got John Cage, La Monte Young, Glenn Branca...

I can't really think of any British composers at the moment, but Germany, Russia, and France definetely beast the US and UK in that regard.

And were all shit.

:)

If by shit you mean THE shit!

To each his own.

Bad Moon Rising is one of the worst albums in my collection.

The other 2 are a little better but not much.

Sonic Youth didn`t get interesting till Sister to me.

I haven't actually heard Bad Moon Rising. Evol is decent, but I consider Confusion is Sex to be on par with Daydream Nation. That might sound blasphemous, but there's something about that album that really gets me.

Are we listening to the same band?