Unpopular Music Opinions

Josef K · 03-10-2015, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds

I said "possibly the current" earlier because just as you don't expect a metalhead to enjoy sludge metal, power metal, black metal, folk metal, death metal, and grindcore, or a jazz listener to enjoy big band, free jazz, cool jazz, acid jazz, and Afro-Cuban jazz, you shouldn't expect a classical listener to enjoy Baroque, Classical, Romantic, Impressionist, and opera. The term "classical" refers to such a large umbrella of styles that it's unreasonable to expect anyone to enjoy it all.

Uh

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socrates

And what do you say of lovers of wine? Do you not see them doing the same? They are glad of any pretext of drinking any wine.

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Originally Posted by Glaucon

Very good.

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Originally Posted by Socrates

And the same is true of ambitious men; if they cannot command an army, they are willing to command a file; and if they cannot be honoured by really great and important persons, they are glad to be honoured by lesser and meaner people, but honour of some kind they must have.

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Originally Posted by Glaucon

Exactly.

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Originally Posted by Socrates

Once more let me ask: Does he who desires any class of goods, desire the whole class or a part only?

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Originally Posted by Glaucon

The whole.

(You have no idea how long I spent looking for this quote.)

Josef K · 03-10-2015, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds

Been meaning to respond to this for some time now.

Ask the average person to name three classical composers. Chances are, you'll hear Beethoven, Mozart, and Bach. Those three are like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and the Led Zeppelin of classical music. However, most of those people would only be able to hum a brief snatch of Beethoven's 5th, a brief snatch of Beethoven's 9th, and maybe "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring". Anyone who's into classical music is familiar with both other, less notable composers from their eras and possibly the current. Just as anyone who's into rock music is aware of The Kinks.

Anyway, I don't see how this is responsive to anything in Batlord's post other than "harms modern classical composers", and even that relies on misinterpretation. Batlord tells you that people don't pay attention to modern classical composers (and because the set of classical fans is much smaller than the set of rock fans, that means a lot fewer people know Max Richter or whoever than know, uh, the Kinks) because of too much respect for elders. The list of rock bands that people outside of the rock nerd community (although I'd note that these two aren't super comparable because many more people listen to much more rock music than people listen to classical) know updates with time. Everyone knows the Beatles and Zeppelin, but everyone also knows the Black Keys. This hurts modern classical composers because the image people have of the genre (which, as you say, is massive and varied) is of old dudes in wigs making absurdly boring music. So not only do people not go into the genre if they want to create great, daring music, but listeners don't pay any attention to whatever great modern classical stuff is coming out, because of the Mozart-Beethoven-Bach image that you talk about.

I don't entirely agree with Batlord - I think the causal link doesn't make a ton of sense (this could be due to lots of things that aren't "respect for elders") and I don't think it's really true that nobody pays attention to modern classical music - but I think it's just not correct that this is the same as rock so it isn't a big deal. Moreover, I think Batlord would agree that the "respect for elders" that, for example, results in people thinking that the Beatles are the greatest band of all time (seriously, where'd they get that idea?

) is a problem in rock music too.

Pet_Sounds · 03-10-2015, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

Anyway, I don't see how this is responsive to anything in Batlord's post other than "harms modern classical composers", and even that relies on misinterpretation. Batlord tells you that people don't pay attention to modern classical composers (and because the set of classical fans is much smaller than the set of rock fans, that means a lot fewer people know Max Richter or whoever than know, uh, the Kinks) because of too much respect for elders. The list of rock bands that people outside of the rock nerd community (although I'd note that these two aren't super comparable because many more people listen to much more rock music than people listen to classical) know updates with time. Everyone knows the Beatles and Zeppelin, but everyone also knows the Black Keys.

No classical music listener would claim that "a couple guys named Mozart and Beethoven just happen to be the be all and end all of music", and just about all of them are aware of modern composers in some form. The problem for modern compsers is supply and demand: There is a huge pool (500 years) of classical music to draw from, but the number of people drawing from that pool is decreasing.

Quote:

This hurts modern classical composers because the image people have of the genre (which, as you say, is massive and varied) is of old dudes in wigs making absurdly boring music. So not only do people not go into the genre if they want to create great, daring music, but listeners don't pay any attention to whatever great modern classical stuff is coming out, because of the Mozart-Beethoven-Bach image that you talk about.

A good deal of modern classical music is a bit too daring for the established tastes of older listeners, but you'll find that most of them are pretty aware of the more traditional composers. For example, I went to a choral concert last Saturday, and about 80% of the audience was over 60--I was probably the youngest person there. However, more than half their selections were pieces written in the past fifty years, and about a quarter were from the past decade. In addition, younger classical music listeners with more open minds, like me, Frownland, and you, I gather, are quite interested in the more daring modern composers.

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I don't entirely agree with Batlord - I think the causal link doesn't make a ton of sense (this could be due to lots of things that aren't "respect for elders") and I don't think it's really true that nobody pays attention to modern classical music - but I think it's just not correct that this is the same as rock so it isn't a big deal. Moreover, I think Batlord would agree that the "respect for elders" that, for example, results in people thinking that the Beatles are the greatest band of all time (seriously, where'd they get that idea?

) is a problem in rock music too.

As much as I love them, I cringe whenever anybody says that The Beatles were the greatest, or even most influential band of all time. Most certified US album sales. Sure, but that doesn't equal greatest.

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Originally Posted by Chula Vista

Again, for the umpteenth time, no way you are only 15-16.

Thanks to my mom being a piano teacher, singing in a choir for several years (left when my voice deepened), and Radio 2, I've had more exposure to classical than any other genre.

Batlord's post annoyed me, TBH, since it seemed he was making sweeping generalizations about a community he knows nothing about.

Josef K · 03-10-2015, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pet_Sounds

As much as I love them, I cringe whenever anybody says that The Beatles were the greatest, or even most influential band of all time. Most certified US album sales. Sure, but that doesn't equal greatest.

That line was just there to get a reaction from you.

Quote:

Batlord's post annoyed me, TBH, since it seemed he was making sweeping generalizations about a community he knows nothing about.

I don't have much stake in this argument - I think I agree with both of you in that Batlord's right that mindless elder-worship is a bad thing, but it's less clear that it is, uh, a thing.

**Janszoon** · 03-10-2015, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

...mindless elder-worship...

That would be a great band name!

Ashwell John · 03-10-2015, 08:46 PM

I don't like rocking songs. I am quiet and love romantic songs.

Pet_Sounds · 03-10-2015, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josef K

That line was just there to get a reaction from you.

Kinda figured.

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I don't have much stake in this argument - I think I agree with both of you in that Batlord's right that mindless elder-worship is a bad thing, but it's less clear that it is, uh, a thing.

The rest of Batty's post is spot on, IMO, especially the bit about classic rock. Quite a bit of it's the nostalgia industry, I suppose.

Josef K · 03-10-2015, 08:47 PM

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Originally Posted by Janszoon

That would be a great band name!

Dibs.

Neff Anselmo · 03-11-2015, 02:55 PM

As a big fan of Pantera, I really don't like the song Walk.

The Batlord · 03-20-2015, 11:54 AM

It's a bit too obtuse to really catch my ear in the same way that Altars of Madness does, but Formulas Fatal to the Flesh is easily Morbid Angel's greatest musical achievement. Definitely ****s all over Covenant, and Steve Tucker is a far more suitable vocalist for a modern death metal band than David Vincent.

03-11-2015, 02:55 PM	#10449 (permalink)
Neff Anselmo Music Addict Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 51	As a big fan of Pantera, I really don't like the song Walk. __________________ http://userserve-ak.last.fm/serve/50...927/Burzum.jpg http://lastlabs.pl/musicbar.php?user...ck&unicode=yes Tumblr Last.fm

03-10-2015, 08:46 PM	#10446 (permalink)
Ashwell John Music Addict Join Date: Feb 2015 Posts: 100	I don't like rocking songs. I am quiet and love romantic songs.