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Old 12-18-2012, 09:44 PM   #191 (permalink)
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Yes, that's the argument. Also, I didn't say it is official policy for moderators here to welcome new members, but it might as well be - whoever is best suited for it, not every mod doing it. To split hairs, other than maybe the admin, moderators usually are volunteers, but volunteers essentially are unpaid employees and have employee obligations.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:17 PM   #192 (permalink)
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I think the mods just totally disagree with what those obligations are. I can see where you are coming from but the whole line between being responsible for others is blurred if in many ways mods are using the forum much like a usual member. It isn't just their job to regulate their forum as they are participating members trying to enjoy the forum just like anyone else. I think considering the consistent opinions shown by the mods you might just have to accept that they have have different perspective.
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Old 12-18-2012, 10:38 PM   #193 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sopsych View Post
Yes, that's the argument. Also, I didn't say it is official policy for moderators here to welcome new members, but it might as well be - whoever is best suited for it, not every mod doing it. To split hairs, other than maybe the admin, moderators usually are volunteers, but volunteers essentially are unpaid employees and have employee obligations.
"employee obligations"
I'm not say it should be the official policy for the moderators, but besides your suggestion of welcoming new members they should also keep the discussions on track. I understand how this off topic discussion evolved, but what happen to talking about the evolution of music? I've been on froums that would in no way tolerate off topic discussion or questioning the actions of mods. This site seems a lot more laid back in that respect. You should be happy about that and switch back to the topic.
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Old 12-18-2012, 11:28 PM   #194 (permalink)
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Yes, I appreciate that we can even have this discussion. I've been waiting for it to be spun off into a different thread, where we can get into the issue about moderators being regular participants vs. being mods.
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Old 12-28-2012, 06:59 AM   #195 (permalink)
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I guess it was just easier in part because the instrument(s) were so new that all their capabilities hadn't been discovered yet. At this point I don't care much anymore. When I finally realized that fresh ideas and room for innovation had basically dried out in music, I realized that it wasn't just with music, it was with everything else in the world too. Nothing's new anymore. At least nothing new that is captivating or worth-while to me. When I look around, I see a dull world that keeps getting duller. I can't imagine what it's going to be like when I'm 40 or 50 years old. I'm only 21 right now and I'm already burnt out on life. There's just nothing new it seems. Idk. Maybe I'm wrong. All I know is that I'm just bored and ready for there to be some kind of big motivation for me to love music and living again. I'm just not into today's styles much. I think they are really watered-down and I can't get to know the musicians anymore because most of them seem to lack true character and soul. I hope the world DOES end next week lol.
I've been thinking about your thread and particularly about whether the electric guitar is the dead-end culmination of popular instrument evolution.

When I look at the evolution (change or development) of popular instruments used in music throughout history, such as the recorder (block flute), harmonica, piano, accordion, lute, acoustic guitar, and electric guitar, I conclude that improving on the electric guitar as a popular instrument may indeed be very difficult, unless human society or humans change drastically.

This means I wouldn't expect many additional, more popular instruments to be developed, because the electric guitar matches the Ideal Qualities of a Popular Instrument (an instrument intended for mass use in creating popular music) so well and much better than any other instrument people have invented:

* * *

Qualities of the Ideal Popular Music Instrument:

1. Uses only the hands to play, freeing the mouth for singing (the recorder and harmonica fail in this regard, but the guitar excels).
2. Easy to learn to play (contrast this with the violin, harp, and piano, which I think are much harder to learn to play well compared to the guitar because they require complex motions from both hands).
3. Cheap to construct (constrast a guitar with the piano).
4. Portable (an accordion was an attempt to make the piano a portable instrument, but it is limited in the sounds it can make; a guitar is lightweight and not too big).
5. Allows great versatility of sound (an electric guitar creates a far greater range of sound than any of the other vibrating instruments).

* * *

^ Unless these criteria change, I think creating a more popular instrument than the electric guitar will be difficult and unlikely, because the electric guitar fulfills them so well!

The evolution of the electric guitar parallels biological evolution in which natural selection sometimes results in a species that fits its unchanging environmental conditions well enough that the species can survive for millions of years with few genetic changes being propagated throughout the population over time. When the environment doesn't change, then there is no selection pressure to encourage the propagation of mutants that happen to exist in the population.

Similarly, guitars have existed for over 3,000 years relatively unchanged, a testament to their success in fulfilling criteria for good popular instruments. Unless humans or culture changes drastically, there is no impetus for the evolution of a new popular music instrument. New instruments *are* being developed, but unless the criteria for a popular instrument change, these new-fangled instruments won't become popular.

Conclusion: the evolution of popular musical instruments leading to the massively popular electric guitar *has* become stagnant and is likely to remain so, because creating an instrument that better matches the criteria for the ideal popular instrument is difficult.

When we humans have run out of fossil fuels in 1,000 years, we may see large changes in human society and energy consumption. Then I would expect such environmental changes to impact the evolution of instruments, because there will be different selection pressures.

For example, if people no longer could use electricity, there would be no electric guitar. Alternatively, if nuclear radioactive waste buildup over the next million years leads to a higher frequency of genetic mutations in people, individuals with altered sensory and perception systems might be more successful at procreating, causing the human population to include many people with different preferences in music such that instruments and music could change quite a bit. We're talking hundreds of thousands of years here, though!

My guess about the future of music is that popular music will continue the trend of being heavily guitar-based while blending sounds from different countries' music traditions, especially as developing nations become wealthier and Western nations lose more economic and cultural power.

* * * * *

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VEGANGELICA,

I know you directed the question to someone else, I hope you don't mind...

It might sound new, the way it is done is relatively new, but it goes back to experimental music from the 60's. (maybe early, but I'm not sure) That peice is somewhere between a sound collage and Glitch (plus a crossfade of hip hop and Electronic j/k) but instead of tone bender manipulating a electronic device as in Glitch, it is a bunch of sample on a computer. And when you think about it, having samples spliced together goes back to the 60's with sound collage, but now it's done with soft ware, not with tape. An example of a sound collage would be Number Nine by The Beatles. (I'm not saying that The Beatles invented Glitch-Hop but I'm sure someone is going to think that.) John must of known of some example of sound collages and wanted to do his own experimental peice on the White album.

The "music" itself might be new or relatively new. But the ideas are old, you'll find a lot of sampling in hip hop, what evolved are the tools and sounds. Some of those sounds relatively new, like the synth bass sample from dub step, or maybe it's a synth bass sample from form Dave Smith synth or something e.g. an anaolgue bass-synth.
Thanks, Neapolitan, for sharing the evolutionary pathway of the sounds I heard in my favorite "Fine Objects" song by Eskamon. I had not known about their origins. I appreciate your sharing!

* * * * *

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It seems like the argument is that new members are extra sensitive to initial remarks and because of that, extra compassion should be given by existing members. Is that essentially it?
Yes, I agree with you that the argument raised in this thread is essentially that existing members should be especially polite to new members, who are more likely than established members to feel sensitive to possible heckling and rebuffed by comments that seem or are rude.

The bigger issue, I feel, is how MusicBanter members and mods want to uphold The First Rule of our community, especially when someone breaks it:

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts or members deliberately provoking another member into committing any of these acts.

I feel that the best way to reply to rudeness is by being polite, since rude replies by members and mods violate the very rule that is supposed to be protected, encourage more rudeness, and discourage open sharing of opinions about music.

I think most of us here want MB to consistently encourage and facilitate the open sharing of opinions about music, but we may disagree on how best to achieve that goal.
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Last edited by VEGANGELICA; 12-28-2012 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:29 AM   #196 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA View Post


Yes, I agree with you that the argument raised in this thread is essentially that existing members should be especially polite to new members, who are more likely than established members to feel sensitive to possible heckling and rebuffed by comments that seem or are rude.

The bigger issue, I feel, is how MusicBanter members and mods want to uphold The First Rule of our community, especially when someone breaks it:

• While debating and discussion is fine, we will not tolerate rudeness, insulting posts, personal attacks, trolling, purposeless inflammatory posts or members deliberately provoking another member into committing any of these acts.

I feel that the best way to reply to rudeness is by being polite, since rude replies by members and mods violate the very rule that is supposed to be protected, encourage more rudeness, and discourage open sharing of opinions about music.

I think most of us here want MB to consistently encourage and facilitate the open sharing of opinions about music, but we may disagree on how best to achieve that goal.
I already responded to this earlier in the thread but here it is again for your benefit.

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Originally Posted by Urban Hat€monger ? View Post
If I was doing what you wanted I would have given out an infraction for the thread starter when he started throwing his toys out of his pram when people didn't agree with him. That's in post No 57 BTW.

Instead I decided to post a reasonable response to his original question to which he first ignored and then dismissed out of hand when I made a point of mentioning it again he then continued with his insistence people were disagreeing with him for the sake of it.
I could have probably given him an infraction for that too for deliberately trolling.

But I didn't, why didn't I?
Because the guy was new and I didn't want to start hurling infractions at him on his first day here. Which ironically is totally at odds of your theory of us 'assimilating more forum visitors'. He chose to go down that road so we allowed him to, It's that simple really.

For the most part this is a laid back forum that lets is members be treated like adults, occasionally things might get a little out of control and that's where we step in. I don't see anything in this thread that's gets any worse than a little heated and I don't see anything worth infraction or banning anybody for.
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