VEGANGELICA

If you met someone who eats dogs and cats, would you feel judgemental or would you just shrug and say, "Meh, to each her own?"

And if you *are* judgemental of people who eat dogs and cats, then why wouldn't you expect vegetarians to be judgemental of meat-eaters who eat other animal species, such as cows, pigs, and chickens?

If someone eats an animal who has died of natural causes, I wouldn't feel judgemental because the person didn't orchestrate that animal's death. However, when someone supports the killing of animals, especially when there are healthful ways to live without doing so, then I'm more likely to feel judgemental (even of myself).

Being free from critique and judgement certainly feels nice, and judgementalism *can* lead to horrible situations (when those who are judgemental decide to physically hurt people with whom they disagree), but judgementalism has also helped reduce or end numerous atrocities (slavery, child labor, capital punishment, etc.), and so I don't consider judgementalism to be a foe. Passing judgement on an action can be an inspiration for change.

And frankly, in my opinion eating animals is a lot worse than being judgemental.

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The Batlord

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VEGANGELICA

Richie, I've thought of some meal ideas (that don't include animals killed by natural causes or any others). I also want to tell you how wonderful I feel it is that you are being supportive of your youngest daughter's choice to be lacto-ovo vegetarian!

If you haven't done so already, I recommend you try adding beans instead of meat to any dishes you make. I think that many young vegetarians may turn to fatty cheese and other dairy products as their main protein source (along with grains), when it would be more healthful to replace some of the dairy products with beans (and vegetables).

I started off using canned black beans and garbanzo beans when I chose to be vegetarian years ago. Later I progressed to cooking whole pots of beans, which you can do by soaking beans for 24 hours well-covered in water, pouring off the water and rinsing the beans, then covering the beans with fresh water and bringing them to a simmer, generally for around 2 hours but more or less depending on the bean size.

Stews and other soups like minestrone that include beans are an excellent meal option, since you can cook a soup and then add either beans or meats later. Bean chili and corn bread is a nice choice since it includes beans and people are used to the idea of meatless chili. Burritos can be made easily with beans or meats.

If your child is like mine, she probably likes to eat what she sees other kids eating at school. So we sometimes buy Boca (vegan) original "Chik'n" meatless patties, which I feel taste very good. However, I have read on the Harvard School of Public Health's website that it is best to limit soy servings to 4 or fewer per week due to the estrogen-like effects of some compounds, isoflavonoids, that are in soy, and so I wouldn't recommend eating soy products more frequently than that until more is known about the long-term impact.

I recommend two recipe books:

(1) "Vegan Vittles," by Joanne Stepaniak. Your daughter might like this, because the book ties in to Farm Sanctuary, a wonderful organization that rescues and cares for animals discarded or rescued from factory farms: http://www.amazon.com/Vegan-Vittles-.../dp/1570670250

(2) "Vegan with a Vengeance," which a vegetarian man whom I met yesterday while he was working in a Outdoors Equipment store recommended to me highly: Vegan with a Vengeance | Post Punk Kitchen | Vegan Baking & Vegan Cooking

You probably already know this, but your daughter may benefit from a multivitamin that includes vitamin B-12. If you haven't visited the Harvard School of Public Health's nutrition website, then I recommend it for dietary and nutrition information:

Protein: Moving Closer to Center Stage - What Should You Eat? - The Nutrition Source - Harvard School of Public Health

Calcium and Milk: What's Best for Your Bones and Health? - What Should You Eat? - The Nutrition Source - Harvard School of Public Health

I also recommend the American Dietetics Association's position statement on vegetarian diets, which is rich with useful information. Here is the webpage that provides the abstract along with a link to the PDF of the full document: Vegetarian Diets

Richie, I want to comment on my reply to your "can't we all just get along" post above, since I think my reply probably came off sounding very harsh.

I agree with you that being judgemental of someone can emotionally hurt that person, and that is a concern. Is it possible to judge a person's actions (approve or disapprove of them) while still caring about and liking or even loving the person as a whole? I think the answer is yes, but it does create friction.

If I saw my child kick a dog, you can bet I'd be judgemental even as I love him. I would tell him not to do it and would encourage him to think how he would feel if he were kicked.

If I saw an adult kick a dog, I would probably feel a lot less love and a lot more anger and fear: I *would* judge the person.

In my view, eating animals is a variation of kicking them, because animals are often raised in harmful ways and then of course people kill them (and that's not kind). And if the animals *were* leading happy lives (cooped up inside buildings, as pigs and chickens are in Iowa, and so I doubt their lives are as fulfilling as they could be, but let's just pretend), then killing a happy animal isn't kind either.

So while some vegetarians will say they don't care if other people eat meat or not, I can never say that, because I *do* care. If meat-eating weren't a life-death issue, then it wouldn't bother me, but it is, and so in my opinion it is reasonable that people who care about animals will feel concerned about what or whom other people eat. I don't know if there is any way around that.

Good luck with your meal planning and, again, I'm so glad you are supportive of your daughter. I wish I'd known such support when I was a child.

Applause!! Thank you, Batlord.

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djchameleon

I have to ask this, why do vegetarians feel like that's a valid argument to compare domesticated animals to farm animals that are used for consumption?

There is also another argument that comes into play majority of the time.

If you are okay with eating cows then you should be okay with eating humans because humans are animals.

Why are those two considered valid arguments/talking points? I don't get it.

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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.

VEGANGELICA

(1) Because in some parts of the world, animals you and I may consider as "pet" animals *are* used for consumption. Because whether animals are considered "pets" or "food" doesn't mean that these animals' experiences and enjoyment of life are signficantly different. Dogs, pigs, cows, cats...all have feelings and awareness.

(2) Because meat-eating people often claim that humans should be able to eat animals guiltlessly, without explaining why that is their opinion or addressing the fact that humans *are* animals and appear to share with many of our animal cousins a similar ability to feel joy and pain.

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djchameleon

In those parts of the world that take what we consider pets and turn them into chow. I'm pretty sure they don't go around treating them as pets and then when they are low on food they just toss the little animal into the pot.

And even if they did, the animal is serving a purpose to keep the human from starving so I don't really see the harm in it.

Yes there are alternatives but that's what they choose to eat.


I think part of that is some meat eaters feel that animals have no soul and that may come from a religious background. Not really sure , I had a light conversation with a friend of mines over that last night. He was firm in his belief that animals don't have souls so it's fine.

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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.

Streamy

For me, I became a vegetarian based off the notion that I consider myself to be very independent. Personally, I could never walk up to a cow and slit its throat so it was strange to me that I was ok with other people doing that for me. I couldn't even watch other people doing it.

So I decided I'd only eat animals that I feel I could kill myself. It's dependent on me knowing what mindset I'm in. I lived in the country for awhile and I would've gladly killed chickens, but when I live in the city, I have a much harder time stomaching things.

I don't look down on people who eat meat, especially people who have killed the animals themselves. I think there needs to be more respect in the killing of animals than what you get on slaughter farms, and hunting can be better. I just can't do it.

richie1

Thank you for this. My daughters are 15 and 17. They are both very much their own persons. I've always tried (not always successfully) to encourage their individuality. They're both very bright, creative, kids and I'm very proud of them!

We eat alot of very healthy salads and I do add garbanzo beans as well as many veggies. I also enjoy making several soups, but find them a bit bland without using chicken broth (sorry). Of course, I haven't done this since my daughters decision.

I don't believe we've tried the Boca Burgers yet, but I do get her Morning Star "chicken" and some of the Amy's meals. I will definately check out the Harvard School of Public Health's website. It sounds like it's loaded with good info!

There have been several recipe books recommended. I'll have to spend some time in the local bookstore to see which of them "jump out" at me (and my daughter).

Thank you for this. Being a "noobie", I've tried to express my opinions while being careful not to step on any toes. That first post did kinda take me by suprise. I can appreciate what you had to say and I do respect your opinion.

Thank you. I may seek your advise from time to time. You seem to be very knowledgable on the subject!

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Well a person can work up a mean mean thirst
after a hard day of nothin' much at all
Summer's passed, it's too late to cut the grass
There ain't much to rake anyway in the fall

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Scarlett O'Hara

richie1 she's a devout vegetarian and a very intelligent woman!

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richie1

Clearly on both counts. I'm sure she'll be a great resource to help me navigate through a topic that is fairly new to me!

__________________
Well a person can work up a mean mean thirst
after a hard day of nothin' much at all
Summer's passed, it's too late to cut the grass
There ain't much to rake anyway in the fall

[link removed by mod - no advertising permitted]