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Guybrush 10-16-2021 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188621)
no wonder you people can't keep Nazis out of your parliaments.

That's precious coming from a member of the democracy that elected the openly racist Trump as their president who campaigned building the wall.

Did you see it coming or were you too deep in your own echo chambers to see what was happening?

The Batlord 10-16-2021 09:08 AM

Where's the free market of ideas? All you seem to be doing is reacting emotionally to insults hoping to dunk on me and ignoring the actual meat of my posts. It's almost like all your highfalutin talk about free exchange of ideas doesn't even apply to you, the quintessential free exchanger of ideas, and what actually rules debate is emotional manipulation (I.e. I am ruling you by making you petty rather than logical)

rubber soul 10-16-2021 09:11 AM

You know, while you guys are arguing about which side of the pond is more polarizing, did it occur to you that maybe The Europeans and Americans are just as polarized with each other?

adidasss 10-16-2021 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush (Post 2188625)
That's precious coming from a member of the democracy that elected the openly racist Trump as their president who campaigned building the wall.

Did you see it coming or were you too deep in your own echo chambers to see what was happening?

Aren't you kind of defeating your own arguments by judging Trump for being "openly racist" while criticizing cancel culture when it comes to LGTBQ issues?

If Chapelle shouldn't be cancelled, then neither should Trump.

I keep repeating the same argument ad nauseam but it serves its purpose, this whole thing wouldn't even be debated if the topic was racism and not trans/queerphobia. Are any openly racist comics being given the largest platform on the planet to air their antiquated views under the guise of "free speech" and "diversity of opinion"? And what's the reason why LGBTQphobia is not treated in the same way that racism is treated?

bob_32_116 10-16-2021 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubber soul (Post 2188628)
You know, while you guys are arguing about which side of the pond is more polarizing, did it occur to you that maybe The Europeans and Americans are just as polarized with each other?

And also, did it occur to them that most of us don't particularly care to watch their little ****fight?

The Batlord 10-16-2021 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adidasss (Post 2188640)
Aren't you kind of defeating your own arguments by judging Trump for being "openly racist" while criticizing cancel culture when it comes to LGTBQ issues?

If Chapelle shouldn't be cancelled, then neither should Trump.

I keep repeating the same argument ad nauseam but it serves its purpose, this whole thing wouldn't even be debated if the topic was racism and not trans/queerphobia. Are any openly racist comics being given the largest platform on the planet to air their antiquated views under the guise of "free speech" and "diversity of opinion"? And what's the reason why LGBTQphobia is not treated in the same way that racism is treated?

I don't think he's arguing that point, I think he's just arguing against a nebulous concept of cancel culture he doesn't really understand because he's concerned with free speech or something.

adidasss 10-16-2021 11:07 AM

Right, but then it seemed to me he wouldn't really mind if the likes of Trump were "cancelled". I could be jumping the gun there though.

I certainly can't agree with the concept that everyone, barring murderers or rapists, should be allowed to express their opinion on one of the largest stages in the world. There will always be people will prejudice, I'd just rather they'd shut the fuck up and keep it to themselves and not blare their shitty opinions to the whole world, a lot of which is dumb and impressionable.

Marie Monday 10-16-2021 01:48 PM

Saying that Chapelle and Trump have equal reasons to be cancelled is unfair. Chapelle never locked immigrants in cages. I'm not necessarily saying Chapelle's transphobia is harmless (I hardly know anything about him and the extent of his influence) but it's clearly of a different order

jwb 10-16-2021 02:13 PM

I think he said that's his last special anyways so what is there left to cancel?

jwb 10-16-2021 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188621)
If the European perspective is that the cream rises to the top if we all just talk it out like adults then no wonder you people can't keep Nazis out of your parliaments. The social media echo chambers certainly suck but they are a symptom of polarization, not a root cause and blaming radicalization on itself is a typical liberal viewpoint that ignores material analysis.

If there weren't material conditions that were leading people to look for answers why their life and the world sucks so much then Twitter, Youtube, Fox News, talk radio, etc wouldn't have an audience to wind up. But with every financial crisis the elite class consolidate more and more capital and the market share for everyone else shrinks and shrinks and people get more and more desperate for any analytical lens that makes sense to them.

Worrying about cancel culture and echo chambers as villains isolated from any deeper, more holistic analysis is just simping for the status quo, and blathering on about the free exchange of ideas is ignoring how and why these radical ideas develop in the first place. They develop because people's needs aren't being met and they are angry and emotional, and they often come to their conclusions via anger and emotion with help from somebody who knows how to direct their anger and emotions. It's a marketplace of ideas in the same sense as any marketplace functions on cold reason and logic (hint: they don't).

i dunno about that... I think the way these online platforms function naturally leads itself to echo chambers regardless of the material conditions or even the type of content being consumed

It's not even just politics. Like if i go to YouTube for music all their algorithm does is feed me back the same artists and songs it already knows i like.

As for Europe, don't many of those countries actually have stricter speech laws than us? Doesn't seem to be stopping Nazis from gaining influence there so that seems like a rather empty talking point... If anything you can just say neither approach has worked at actually combatting polarization and radical ideas.

Frownland 10-16-2021 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Guybrush (Post 2188606)
I haven't seen Chapelle's special and don't know what he says, but I do find many aspects of cancel culture to be dumb. Do we have to agree on everything in order to accept and tolerate that someone else has a place in society / entertainment / whatever?

Taken to extremes, in the US, you could have comedians for democrats and other comedians for republicans. You could read different books, watch different channels, consume different news sources and entirely different narratives about the world. It removes common ground, segregates people and ups conflict.

It undermines democracy which was built on the idea that we should voice opinions, debate them and place our votes. Differing opinions should come into contact inside our brains and the best ones win. A good thing about that is it makes it possible for people to change their mind. Cancel culture is more like cultural war and you stick to your side/echo chambers where bad opinions can fester unchallenged. If you think your opinions are right, you ironically lose the ability to influence your opponents. You know more about alt right and q-anon than I do, I'm sure. Cancel culture is a small part of the environment that allows stuff like that to blossom.

Increased cancel culture is also one of the consequences of people getting radicalised by social media echo chambers and algorithms feeding us content.

Sometimes cancellation is appropriate, but I don't think the line should be drawn at legal expression of opinions you don't agree with. Cancel Varg Vikernes, R. Kelly, Harvey Weinstein - you know, people who would rape or murder.

Cancel culture in the form of widespread critique sounds closer to a free exchange of ideas than avoiding criticism because it's not as convincing as agreeing with prejudice.

jwb 10-16-2021 02:39 PM

You think a free exchange of ideas is a good thing or are you saying cancel culture is **** as well?

Frownland 10-16-2021 02:41 PM

I'm saying that bogeyman cancel culture is closer to free exchange of ideas than taking measures to avoid it.

jwb 10-16-2021 02:45 PM

I got that part my question is does that make it a good thing...

Cause batlord was suggesting that a free exchange of ideas is actually a bad recipe for the best ideas winning out... And these days that's looking pretty hard to dispute tbh

Frownland 10-16-2021 02:49 PM

What do you think? Is good or is bad?

jwb 10-16-2021 02:53 PM

I don't know what's why i asked the question

Speaking in terms of ideals it sounds good i guess

But in terms of actual results i hardly see what good its doing. Are we better off for the recent Chappelle controversy? Did either side learn anything or is there just money being made in every direction leeching off the crumbs of content left behind...

The Batlord 10-16-2021 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2188677)
I got that part my question is does that make it a good thing...

Cause batlord was suggesting that a free exchange of ideas is actually a bad recipe for the best ideas winning out... And these days that's looking pretty hard to dispute tbh

You are an absolutely stupid bitch. My whole point was that the most important issue was material concerns but I guess saying that would look weird next to a bag of Doritos you white trash box maker.

The Batlord 10-16-2021 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2188681)
I don't know what's why i asked the question

Speaking in terms of ideals it sounds good i guess

But in terms of actual results i hardly see what good its doing. Are we better off for the recent Chappelle controversy? Did either side learn anything or is there just money being made in every direction leeching off the crumbs of content left behind...

You say this spending all your time defending some comic who will be forgotten in a few decades. Stop being such a stupid whiny bitch just cause the only men you can find validation from are comedians.

jwb 10-16-2021 05:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188695)
You are an absolutely stupid bitch. My whole point was that the most important issue was material concerns but I guess saying that would look weird next to a bag of Doritos you white trash box maker.

Damn you sound salty af lol

Yeah you did the vague "material conditions" talking point good work comrade but you also casted some aspersions on the idea that "the cream will rise to the top if we just talk it out." I was agreeing with your skepticism there pal not really sure where your recent outburst is coming from :o:

The Batlord 10-16-2021 05:13 PM

I'm quite drunk and casting aspersions on your ability to pleasure persons other than yourself is just what I must do.

jwb 10-16-2021 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188696)
You say this spending all your time defending some comic who will be forgotten in a few decades. Stop being such a stupid whiny bitch just cause the only men you can find validation from are comedians.

lol

Apparently I've touched a nerve somehow.. I'm sure i don't know how though. I don't know why you can't handle the fact that you haven't changed my mind about Chappelle. You just follow me around any time i mention his name and try to harass me into denouncing him. But yeah i really should stop being such a whiny little bitch lol

jwb 10-16-2021 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188700)
I'm quite drunk and casting aspersions on your ability to pleasure persons other than yourself is just what I must do.

charming.

The Batlord 10-16-2021 05:18 PM

Do you want me to stop being mean to you?

jwb 10-16-2021 05:23 PM

No, having belligerent drunks try to lecture me makes me feel right at home tbh

The Batlord 10-16-2021 05:23 PM

I 've seen the amount of effort that John Wilkes Booth has put into turning his life around and I am impressed. It must be so hard to resist the temptation of drugs and- wait didn't you just get fired for being a pothead?

The Batlord 10-16-2021 05:26 PM

Hey where's Steph so I can tell her not to buy a house with some dude?

jwb 10-16-2021 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188707)
I 've seen the amount of effort that John Wilkes Booth has put into turning his life around and I am impressed. It must be so hard to resist the temptation of drugs and- wait didn't you just get fired for being a pothead?

wow you totally got me i guess i don't have it all together after all.....

I don't even expect you to try to get your life together dude but as long as you've been working at BK you should own the mother****er by now... Real talk i bet you've been there longer than I've ever kept a job bro

Marie Monday 10-16-2021 05:36 PM

can you two have some nice subtextually erotic bickering without insulting each other's life choices

jwb 10-16-2021 05:39 PM

I wasnt insulting i was admiring his loyalty and subservience.. employee of the decade imo

Marie Monday 10-16-2021 05:48 PM

yeah and I'm just admiring the nice romantic tension going on here

Guybrush 10-16-2021 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188627)
Where's the free market of ideas? All you seem to be doing is reacting emotionally to insults hoping to dunk on me and ignoring the actual meat of my posts.

The meat of your post is basically you arguing against some strawmen. Couple that with your "vapid as ****" comment and it's pretty good signalling of the tedium that it can be to engage with you in anything like a serious discussion.

You don't know what my european perspective is. Your description of the free market of ideas is not representative of any deeply held beliefs that I have. Neither do I think I'm blathering on about echo chambers and cancel culture without considering anything else. Am I blaming radicalization on itself? I didn't know that. You assume I dismiss "material conditions" as explanations. Do I? Thanks for letting me know.

It's like you're railing against some manifesto you think I wrote, but it's mostly from your own brain.


Please don't make strawmen. You spend some time on the market of ideas, so against my better judgment, I'll clarify a little some things that I believe. What I actually believe is that ideas are much like genes. Ideas can spread from brain to brain and they sometimes mutate, creating altered or new ideas that are either more or less competitive. There's a natural selection of ideas like there is for organisms so that ideas that are not well adapted to the environment tend to become fewer or die out while those that are better adapted become more numerous.

Sometimes, ideas clump together for mutual benefit to form complexes, like the idea of God and the idea of hell are both more successful when they work together. Complexes may form religions, conspiracy theories, political beliefs or just narratives about the world. For many ideas and complexes, most brains hold one of each type and so variants of a type are in direct conflict (ex. "trickle down economics work" competes directly with "trickle down economics is a lie").

The environment that ideas have to adapt to or die out is part human nature and part human culture. We generally remember and care more about things that make us happy, scared or angry. And then we make cultures that affect how we feel about certain things.

For myself, I am very anti religions. I think they're a stain on humanity and that we'd be better off without. I could want to cancel them, but to me that's a bit like treating a symptom and not the cause. The things that make people religious might still be there. A better way, if a little idealistic, would be to better the quality of education, an education based on empirically evidenced knowledge about the universe that also included the philosophy of critical thinking. Instead of attacking religious ideas, you would instead change the environment so that religious ideas do worse and lose the competition against rational ideas. Instead of combating a negative (religions), you promote a positive (education) which would change the environment and help tip the balance in rationality's favour.

Something that may happen if you instead aggressively attack ideas and shame people or whatever is you mobilize their defenses. They identify you as an enemy (it's probably plain to see), so your ideas can't penetrate them. They hunker down in their own echo chambers and the environments of those echo chambers is one where the ideas you oppose or even despise actually thrive.

This is why I asked you about Trump and if you saw it coming. When you cancel something you think is bad, someone else may be cancelling something you think is good. You think you're all woke and then the other echo chambers are actually bigger than you thought possible and they get to decide on the next fascist president.

I can't say for sure that cancel culture isn't good, because I'm not 100% sure. It could be that cancelling Dave Chapelle is the best thing for the world. But Dave is a guy who has brought a lot of joy to so many people and who also has spoken on some issues in a positive way. I still don't know what he's said this time around, but it seems sad to define the man entirely by a bad take during a stand up routine. I also don't think people like John Cleese and Richard Dawkins should be barred from speaking at unis and I wanna watch Harry Potter with my kid, even if Rowling has some bad ideas.

I'd rather help change the environment than cancel artists. We tend to focus a lot of attention on combating negatives, but it may actually be better to spend that time promoting the positives. It's a better way of influencing the "free market of ideas". You stand a better chance of getting your ideas under the radar and past the defenses of your would-be opponents. Before I get accused/strawmanned for it, I am not saying we can't still disagree. Do so, loudly if you want.

jwb 10-16-2021 06:20 PM

Harry potter is lame bro smh...

Frownland 10-16-2021 06:29 PM

Such a shame that we can only watch Harry Potter movies on every major network and HBO after we had the nerve to call JK Rowling transphobic. What have we done?

Guybrush 10-16-2021 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 2188715)
Such a shame that we can only watch Harry Potter movies on every major network and HBO after we had the nerve to call JK Rowling transphobic. What have we done?

Of course we can because the world is full of transphobes and people who don't care. The major networks cater to them and make cash.

It's more that liking Harry Potter is now a signal that you're a transphobe to liberals who will now disregard anything you have to say about anything.

(Disclaimer: humorous hyperbole)

jwb 10-16-2021 08:22 PM

I would def ban my kids from reading Harry Potter

WWWP 10-16-2021 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2188708)
Hey where's Steph so I can tell her not to buy a house with some dude?

https://64.media.tumblr.com/d6852316...ssi9o1_250.gif

Frownland 10-16-2021 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2188720)
I would def ban my kids from reading Harry Potter

They can read it, but only as a part of the Symposium of Evil where we also cover Mein Kampf, Bell Curve, Turner Diaries, The Secret, etc.

The Batlord 10-16-2021 11:16 PM

Quote:

I can't say for sure that cancel culture isn't good, because I'm not 100% sure. It could be that cancelling Dave Chapelle is the best thing for the world. But Dave is a guy who has brought a lot of joy to so many people and who also has spoken on some issues in a positive way. I still don't know what he's said this time around, but it seems sad to define the man entirely by a bad take during a stand up routine. I also don't think people like John Cleese and Richard Dawkins should be barred from speaking at unis and I wanna watch Harry Potter with my kid, even if Rowling has some bad ideas.

I'd rather help change the environment than cancel artists. We tend to focus a lot of attention on combating negatives, but it may actually be better to spend that time promoting the positives. It's a better way of influencing the "free market of ideas". You stand a better chance of getting your ideas under the radar and past the defenses of your would-be opponents. Before I get accused/strawmanned for it, I am not saying we can't still disagree. Do so, loudly if you want
Who's cancelling any of those people? The idea that a Twitter mob can cancel JK Rowling is a fiction probably penned by JK Rowling, along with all the reactionaries who want to elevate her. She's still rich. She's still on Twitter. She's still spreading TERF ****. And now you're here giving credence to her. Guess you got some reactionary genes in you.

And if you prefer to support a positive rather than combat a negative does that mean that when CNN invites Richard Spencer on to talk about something, we shouldn't discourage the platforming of a white nationalist, we should encourage them to speak to people who aren't white nationalists as well? Don't boot Alex Jones off Youtube, cause you don't want good Youtubers booted off along with him?

You still sound like a marketplace of ideas liberal. All the science **** is just dressing your ideas up in a lab coat.

SGR 10-16-2021 11:31 PM

If I could cancel two people, it would be Harry and Meghan. God am I sick of hearing about them. If Joe Biden promises to deport them back to where they came from, he'll have my vote in 2024.

jwb 10-16-2021 11:59 PM

who?


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