in this specific domain (being selective with sexual partners) I think biology is more relevant than you think. As for expectations... Social conditioning plays a role but often the norms we push socially are only reinforcing the basic underlying biological drive. It's not an either or situation.

Example: men are more violent than women. This obviously has social cues you can point to with regard to what we think is masculine etc. But I find it hard to believe that it's a coincidence that the sex that specialized in hunting and war in the hunter gatherer context is also the sex that is more violent today and also the sex we expect to go to war if need be etc. It's not a coincidence that the sex that is more physically apt to be violent is more violent. And it's not a coincidence that women are more selective with partners and more reliant on things like chemistry etc since they are also the ones who have the kids. And we're a pair bonding species. So mate selection for a woman has intrinsically different implications.

I know it's not always appealing to look at ourselves as animals with a scientific lense. But I've yet to hear a compelling reason why this isn't the most plausible explanation.

Oh I do agree with that, but if I understand you correctly I think what you call biology can to a large extent be viewed as conditioning
And anyway, it doesn't matter where it comes from really. It's antiquated nonsense that only causes harm, and that's what's important

Ahh ****, hating men and tearing down the patriarchy just happens to be my male fantasy.

Uno reverse

I think the difference is that in that case the basis isn't submissive

Edit to clarify: a man can not seek admiration of women and have a respectful place in society. Traditionally, a woman not conforming to male approval has no place. She's completely dismissed, or worse. So women are taught to be dependent on it, that they need to submit to it

You're right that it's also toxic the other way round though, definitely

Obviously elph men are victims of the patriarchy as well, but are men are being taught to derive all their self worth from women? Absolutely not lol.

Yeah Chio's post sounds exactly like Frantz Fanon's ideas about double consciousness in colonized people (specifically black) and while I can attest that I feel like I have a black person in my head shaking their head at my whiteness it's simply not the same thing cause the power disparity prevents it from causing trauma. It's just kind of awkward sometimes.

I've never been cyber stalked by a creepy adult in my adolescence though.

I wonder how many women on this very forum have an experience of genuine fear due to a man stalking or being overly aggressive.

Ooh that's an interesting point/comparison Bat. (God I desperately need an e-reader.... I have so many hoarded books that I wish to read but they're all PDFs and I hate reading on my laptop)

I have soooooo much experience with that. So much. Glad I finally taught myself EMDR to help with the resulting trauma and fear (obviously it's not the same as going to an EMDR trained/certified therapist, but whatever, I'm poor and some therapists have said it's fine to do on your own if that's your only option)

Anyway yes, what Marie said, and also

Yes I'm aware but I didn't have time to write a full, thorough dissertation-length post covering all of THAT too in part because I am not male. I wasn't starting a who-has-it-worse contest, I was just talking about a distinctly female experience that IMO MAY POSSIBLY feel more degrading, punishing, confusing and icky than the kind of social conditioning --specifically the kind relating to how one views their body and how one should exist within/decorate their body-- boys and young men experience. But yes it's toxic all around as Marie said. I am not negating men's own uniquely horrible struggles in our toxic clown world merely by talking about some specific thing women commonly experience.

Aside from all that, humans in general have a tendency to want to seek out outside sources to derive their self-worth/self-esteem from rather than within themselves/more healthy sources, so. I'm obviously aware of the obvious things, mr obvious.