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Old 10-19-2019, 06:42 PM   #23111 (permalink)
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Spoiler for one more thing:
One thing that I thought was pretty interesting about the ending was that even though he had confronted all of these very valid social ills, the only result was chaos. I'm fairly certain that this is setting up a sequel, so I wonder if that will churn out a decent foil to this character that has the same enemies but aims for better results or something along those lines.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:44 PM   #23112 (permalink)
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Definitely. Maybe the film being set in what seemed to be the 80s is a way of pointing at corporate capitalism as one of many causes of the character's mindset.
JOKER SPOILERS

I'd say the yuppie victims of the Joker's first murders would support that. Don't forget that Bruce Wayne's father in Batman comics has always been portrayed as a paragon of virtue, and this movie's portrayal of him as an arrogant 1%er decrying wealth envy subverts not only Batman lore but American lore as well.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Last edited by The Batlord; 10-19-2019 at 06:51 PM.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:49 PM   #23113 (permalink)
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JOKER SPOILERS

I'd say the yuppie victims of the Joker's first murders would support that. Don't forget that Bruce Wayne's father in Batman comics has always been portrayed as a paragon of virtue, and this movie's portrayal of him as an arrogant 1%er decrying wealth envy subverts not only Batman lore but American lore as well.
From what I understand, Batman is told from Bruce Wayne's perspective, so there could be an element of trauma-driven idealism at play in that depiction.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:50 PM   #23114 (permalink)
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Spoiler for one more thing:
One thing that I thought was pretty interesting about the ending was that even though he had confronted all of these very valid social ills, the only result was chaos. I'm fairly certain that this is setting up a sequel, so I wonder if that will churn out a decent foil to this character that has the same enemies but aims for better results or something along those lines.
Spoiler for spoilers:
I kind of think the opposite. I think this movie was nihilistic, partially because the main character is inherently nihilistic, but also because the point it is making is that human nature is inherently nihilistic. I think this is going to be a standalone film with no sequels, or at least it was planned to be. This movie is saying that the Joker is right to end up as he did, but this movie's Joker also has no philosophy as he is merely a reaction to his environment. And that environment is cruel and inhumane simply because it is meaningless.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:51 PM   #23115 (permalink)
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From what I understand, Batman is told from Bruce Wayne's perspective, so there could be an element of trauma-driven idealism at play in that depiction.
Well of course but that doesn't really affect my point.
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There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-19-2019, 06:56 PM   #23116 (permalink)
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Spoiler for spoilers:
I kind of think the opposite. I think this movie was nihilistic, partially because the main character is inherently nihilistic, but also because the point it is making is that human nature is inherently nihilistic. I think this is going to be a standalone film with no sequels, or at least it was planned to be. This movie is saying that the Joker is right to end up as he did, but this movie's Joker also has no philosophy as he is merely a reaction to his environment. And that environment is cruel and inhumane simply because it is meaningless.
Spoiler for .:
Porque no los dos? What you describe is the central focus of the film, but I think that the director implemented that message that responding in violence only results in chaos to show that while the joker's environment created him, it doesn't justify his actions.

I also don't think that the sequel is the intention, but I think that it was something that they prepped the script for if producers and box office success compels it and what I described would be a cool route for them to take if so.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:13 PM   #23117 (permalink)
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Spoiler for .:
Porque no los dos? What you describe is the central focus of the film, but I think that the director implemented that message that responding in violence only results in chaos to show that while the joker's environment created him, it doesn't justify his actions.

I also don't think that the sequel is the intention, but I think that it was something that they prepped the script for if producers and box office success compels it and what I described would be a cool route for them to take if so.
But there was no alternative to the Joker's end result. There was no, "He's wrong and here's why and here's what we can do if we do something better". The whole city just sided with the Joker because they saw no alternative to fight the Wayne oligarchy and they didn't even seek an alternative. Violence was the solution point blank no question.

The end result of the movie sided with the Joker, and if the end result wasn't pretty it wasn't because the movie was seeking for a more palatable solution, it was because it was a movie that was spreading its evil batwings to side with the villain and not give the audience any alternative. This was a ****ing villain movie. It doesn't exist to exist within the greater hero universe, it exists to raise up the villain. That's why it's so ugly and seedy and unpleasant. It doesn't even necessarily reflect the director's viewpoint, it reflects the Joker's viewpoint. The movie ends with raising the Joker up as the hero regardless of whether or not that's the viewpoint of the people who made the movie.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:16 PM   #23118 (permalink)
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But there was no alternative to the Joker's end result. There was no, "He's wrong and here's why and here's what we can do if we do something better". The whole city just sided with the Joker because they saw no alternative to fight the Wayne oligarchy and they didn't even seek an alternative. Violence was the solution point blank no question.

The end result of the movie sided with the Joker, and if the end result wasn't pretty it wasn't because the movie was seeking for a more palatable solution, it was because it was a movie that was spreading its evil batwings to side with the villain and not give the audience any alternative. This was a ****ing villain movie. It doesn't exist to exist within the greater hero universe, it exists to raise up the villain. That's why it's so ugly and seedy and unpleasant. It doesn't even necessarily reflect the director's viewpoint, it reflects the Joker's viewpoint. The movie ends with raising the Joker up as the hero regardless of whether or not that's the viewpoint of the people who made the movie.
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Big mood. I agree with your post.
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Old 10-19-2019, 07:41 PM   #23119 (permalink)
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When I came out of the theater I felt worse than I did after I went in. I felt seedy and gross and like the human race was worse than I thought they were two hours earlier and I honestly think that's what the point of the movie was even beyond the message because I don't see how it was trying to be in any way uplifting. And as far as I'm concerned ruining your night is a perfectly good artistic intent and The Joker succeeded in that for me. Great movie.
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Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien
There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.
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Old 10-20-2019, 09:42 AM   #23120 (permalink)
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Way better than I expected it to be. Both Crowe and Gosling were perfect.

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