Time & Place

Engine · 10-21-2014, 09:18 PM

Hey lemme see if I can beat Unknown Soldier to a worthy response:

Well, um, for reference I'm 2-3 years older than you. And I grew up in the USA but whatever

For brevity: I think Judas Priest is pretty much **** compared to Iron Maiden but that's because of my background I think.

For verbosity: I have the Screaming for Metal album on my phone and I do listen to it sometimes when I need to do mindless tasks and feel like listening to that type of thing. It's alright but I think Judas Priest is far more silly than Iron Maiden. I can't say why other than to tell you that Iron Maiden helped me understand metal while Judas Priest is just a footnote in my personal history.

Diamond Head: This is tough for me because, despite how ridiculous the band is, I love the Metallica EP on which they covered that Diamond Head song, HELPLESS, far more than I will ever love Judas Priest or Iron Maiden.

In summary I really don't care about Diamond Head and I don't even really like NWOBHM but DH made Those Songs That Metallica Covered and their original music sounds good to me in an old-timey-rock-n-roll way. Iron Maiden is a band that I will always sometimes love, and Judas Priest are alright I guess. They are definitely third on the list.

William_the_Bloody · 10-21-2014, 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

Exhibit #3:
Diamond Head—Lightning to the Nations (1980)

Unlike my previous two reviews, I'm pretty unfamiliar with this band. I know the name and I know Metallica's cover of "Am I Evil?", but that's really it. After reading up on Diamond Head a bit, it's hard not to want to root for these guys. This album, their debut, was self-released because they couldn't find a label who was interested. Their manager was the singer's mom. They really didn't receive much notoriety until the likes of Metallica started namedropping them. I mean, seriously, they're the quintessential underdogs.

One of the things that's immediately apparent about this album, even if I had known nothing about its background, is that it's a far more low budget affair than either of the last two albums I have reviewed. The production is certainly not horrible but it isn't exactly doing any of these songs any favors either. One thing that's not immediately apparent is that, also unlike the previous two albums I reviewed, there is only one guitarist at work here. I think it's quite a testament to skills of both guitarist Brian Tatler and bassist Colin Kimberley that the album never feels like it's lacking something that most of their NWOBHM peers had. The riffs come fast and furious and the bass seems to do double duty with tough low end burbling and quasi-rhythm guitar underscoring. Duncan Scott's drums fare less well. I'm not sure if it's mostly a case of poor production or if he's just a boring drummer, but I suspect it's a little bit of both. Likewise Sean Harris' vocals. They're a little flat and they have kind of generic 70s hard rock singer vibe, but at the same time I don't feel like they detract too much from the music either.

Overall, this isn't a bad album by any means, and it's interesting to hear the very noticeable influence it had on Metallica, but it's let down a lot by its circumstances. The weak production and what was probably a lack of studio time undermine songs which may very well have been great under different conditions, but here instead they add up to an album that's somewhat hit-or-miss, though a few diamonds in the rough ("Sucking My Love", "Am I Evil?", "Helpless") stand out. Because of this, it's not an album I see myself revisiting much in the future, but I am quite curious to hear what their subsequent albums sound like. I've heard that their second one has more of a progressive influence to it, and considering the fact that this album's most complex moments are also its highlights, I'd love to hear that.

I have to agree with you on the album being somewhat hit and miss. They have a great guitarist and sucking my Love is a phenomenal song, but overall I found a lot of the tracks to be unmemorable.

I guess with all the hype surrounding this band, I was expecting more in terms of catchy guitar riffs, but in a lot of ways (and perhaps this isn't a fair analogy) I found them to be a bit of a second rate Zeppelin. Not a slight, good album, but they fall short of legendary for me.

Unknown Soldier · 10-21-2014, 10:27 PM

I don't know how worthy my response will be, but given the fact that I think that Lightning to the Nations is one of the greatest metal albums recorded I'll try.

In my review I harped on about how I felt Diamond Head as a band had captured the essence of all the band's that influenced them, rather than just trying to blend these influences in like a lot of other bands were doing at the time, something I felt gave the band a different feel. Btw this is something that I've never actually read but always felt about the band.

Also I often find that when people get into metal from other types of music, their entry point into metal is usually from something not too different from what they already like. For example somebody into punk will probably come in through hardcore and into thrash, somebody from prog rock will look at prog metal etc, whereas somebody like myself who came through AOR would look for melodic metal with a sense of flair, which often means they won't see the finer details of something they might be not be that used to, for me I still struggle to get into heavily influenced punk stuff etc. Now as for DH I got into them quite late as a metal listener (I kind of bypassed them) but when I did get into them it was like discovering a pot of gold that I'd completely missed and had all the aspects that I looked for in a metal band and what made it even better was that the songs took their time to creep into my subconscious and when they did that was it.

Finally not griping at anybody here, but a lot of people make the mistake of comparing the band to Metallica for the simple reason that Metallica namechecked them so much, meaning that they quite often start comparing the two bands. Fact is Diamond Head were deep rooted style wise in the 1970s, but due to their grasp of song dynamics and flair were able to add a number of potent special metal potions to the mix, that just happened to inspire some thrash metal bands.

William_the_Bloody · 10-21-2014, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I don't know how worthy my response will be, but given the fact that I think that Lightning to the Nations is one of the greatest metal albums recorded I'll try.

In my review I harped on about how I felt Diamond Head as a band had captured the essence of all the band's that influenced them, rather than just trying to blend these influences in like a lot of other bands were doing at the time, something I felt gave the band a different feel. Btw this is something that I've never actually read but always felt about the band.

Also I often find that when people get into metal from other types of music, their entry point into metal is usually from something not too different from what they already like. For example somebody into punk will probably come in through hardcore and into thrash, somebody from prog rock will look at prog metal etc, whereas somebody like myself who came through AOR would look for melodic metal with a sense of flair, which often means they won't see the finer details of something they might be not be that used to, for me I still struggle to get into heavily influenced punk stuff etc. Now as for DH I got into them quite late as a metal listener (I kind of bypassed them) but when I did get into them it was like discovering a pot of gold that I'd completely missed and had all the aspects that I looked for in a metal band and what made it even better was that the songs took their time to creep into my subconscious and when they did that was it.

Finally not griping at anybody here, but a lot of people make the mistake of comparing the band to Metallica for the simple reason that Metallica namechecked them so much, meaning that they quite often start comparing the two bands. Fact is Diamond Head were deep rooted style wise in the 1970s, but due to their grasp of song dynamics and flair were able to add a number of potent special metal potions to the mix, that just happened to inspire some thrash metal bands.

Well that's the beauty of music I guess, we all have different brainwaves so as the ole saying goes, another man's crap is another man's gold. (Not a reference to DH of course)

You've a hard time getting into heavily influenced punk stuff while I've always had a hard time getting into a lot of NWOHM. I believe a lot of it has to do with culture, as I've always found that people's musical taste are somewhat shaped by what first influenced them in their youth. My first exposure to heavy metal was through bands like Quiet Riot & Twisted Sister when I was in Elementary school. More of a straight up three chord AC/DC sound than the AOR bands, or the galloping riffs of Iron Maiden.

**Janszoon** · 10-22-2014, 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

I have to agree with you on the album being somewhat hit and miss. They have a great guitarist and sucking my Love is a phenomenal song, but overall I found a lot of the tracks to be unmemorable.

I guess with all the hype surrounding this band, I was expecting more in terms of catchy guitar riffs, but in a lot of ways (and perhaps this isn't a fair analogy) I found them to be a bit of a second rate Zeppelin. Not a slight, good album, but they fall short of legendary for me.

I hear you on the Led Zeppelin comparison. Sean Harris especially sounds like he's trying unsuccessfully to be Robert Plant

**Janszoon** · 10-22-2014, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Also I often find that when people get into metal from other types of music, their entry point into metal is usually from something not too different from what they already like. For example somebody into punk will probably come in through hardcore and into thrash, somebody from prog rock will look at prog metal etc, whereas somebody like myself who came through AOR would look for melodic metal with a sense of flair, which often means they won't see the finer details of something they might be not be that used to, for me I still struggle to get into heavily influenced punk stuff etc. Now as for DH I got into them quite late as a metal listener (I kind of bypassed them) but when I did get into them it was like discovering a pot of gold that I'd completely missed and had all the aspects that I looked for in a metal band and what made it even better was that the songs took their time to creep into my subconscious and when they did that was it.

I somewhat agree with you about that. I first started liking metal during the crossover time period and probably because of that I've always preferred my metal with a healthy dose of hardcore influence. I never thought if it that way before, but that really explains why I love modern, sludgier doom yet have a hard time getting into trad doom.

Unknown Soldier · 10-22-2014, 08:41 AM

I’ve pasted below from my review of the album, why DH made such a great job of ruining all their chances at obtaining stardom, Janz mentioned one of the below points as well (most of these reasons can be found on the net in one shape or another).

1) The band refused initially to play the London scene as they felt they didn’t need to, which was commercial suicide as this was where all the major labels were based 2) Instead of having a savvy manager like say Rod Smallwood who was great at getting things done, they had Sean Harris’ mother and producer Reg Fellows, a duo who seemed very good at turning down potential lucurative offers for the band! 3) As often mentioned album covers were a band’s key to success, just think Iron Maiden for impact and even Saxon for getting noticed when it came to album covers. All Diamond Head could muster was a cheaply produced plain white cardboard cover, the above cover is one of the later editions of the album. 4) Like the punk and new-wave scenes, the NWOBHM scene was extremely fast moving and unless a savvy band kept with the pace they were quickly left behind and when DH finally decided to get their act together it was all too late! Finally in hindsight the metal world owes a debt to both Metallica and Megadeth in keeping the spirit of Diamond Head alive for so long.

**Janszoon** · 10-23-2014, 12:45 PM

Exhibit #4:
Saxon—Denim and Leather (1981)

Now I'm starting to get into very unfamiliar NWOBHM territory. As far as I can recall there were no Saxon posters to be found on the walls of my cousins' bedroom and no famous covers of their songs by thrash bands. Aside from having heard the name here and there, I have zero familiarity with them.

When I first listened to the opening song of this album, "Princess of the Night", I wasn't sure what to think. It began with a great, fast, almost Motörhead-like riff repeating a few times, then horribly cheesy vocals intruded. But suddenly, just when I thought I was about to endure the kind of album I feared would haunt my NWOBHM experience, the chorus kicked in and the vocals got surprisingly good. This push and pull between cheese and quality continues throughout Denim and Leather. As with the Diamond Head album, I think some of it comes down to the weak production. It's a little shocking that the fourth album by a popular band would be as poorly produced as another band's self-released debut, but that is indeed the case here.

There's no single individual who really stands out on this album. Pete Gill's drumming, when you focus on it, seems frankly flat and uninspired. Biff Byford's vocals are sometimes good, sometimes bad, and on average just pretty okay. Same with the guitar riffage of Graham Oliver and Paul Quinn. It's only really Steve Dawson's bass that's in any way notable but even that is hardly earth-shattering. Nevertheless, when all the pieces are put together, these guys have a certain ineffable quality that makes me keep putting this album on. It doesn't shine through all the time—sometimes they come off like the musical equivalent of a guy in a stiff, brand-new leather jacket and detergent scented jeans posturing himself as a grizzled road warrior—but every so often they do bring the heat. It's certainly not a coincidence that I've found I enjoy this album far more in the car than I do at home: Saxon really have a knack for writing solid driving tunes. "Princess of the Night", "Midnight Rider", "Fire in the Sky" and "Denim and Leather" are the strongest examples, but even the lesser songs on here magically sound pretty damn good when you're behind the wheel blasting them.

Though it's enjoyable under the right set of circumstances, this album feels to me like a band that is sticking too much to the middle ground. I'd love to either hear them embrace the almost Van Halen like ornamentation hinted at on tracks such as "Out of Control" and "Play It Loud" or go with the Motörhead leaning rawness of "Fire in the Sky" and "Denim and Leather". Either one would be an improvement for me.

William_the_Bloody · 10-24-2014, 12:42 AM

I love this album! For me its perfect foot stompin bar music in the vein of AC/DC. Nothing fancy, just some killer guitar riffs, & in rock, that's all you really need. All hail Saxon!

**Janszoon** · 10-27-2014, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

I love this album! For me its perfect foot stompin bar music in the vein of AC/DC. Nothing fancy, just some killer guitar riffs, & in rock, that's all you really need. All hail Saxon!

I've never liked AC/DC much so maybe that's my issue.

10-21-2014, 09:18 PM	#61 (permalink)
Engine air quote Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: pollen & mold Posts: 3,108	Hey lemme see if I can beat Unknown Soldier to a worthy response: Well, um, for reference I'm 2-3 years older than you. And I grew up in the USA but whatever For brevity: I think Judas Priest is pretty much **** compared to Iron Maiden but that's because of my background I think. For verbosity: I have the Screaming for Metal album on my phone and I do listen to it sometimes when I need to do mindless tasks and feel like listening to that type of thing. It's alright but I think Judas Priest is far more silly than Iron Maiden. I can't say why other than to tell you that Iron Maiden helped me understand metal while Judas Priest is just a footnote in my personal history. Diamond Head: This is tough for me because, despite how ridiculous the band is, I love the Metallica EP on which they covered that Diamond Head song, HELPLESS, far more than I will ever love Judas Priest or Iron Maiden. In summary I really don't care about Diamond Head and I don't even really like NWOBHM but DH made Those Songs That Metallica Covered and their original music sounds good to me in an old-timey-rock-n-roll way. Iron Maiden is a band that I will always sometimes love, and Judas Priest are alright I guess. They are definitely third on the list. __________________ Like an arrow, I was only passing through.

10-23-2014, 12:45 PM	#68 (permalink)
Janszoon Mate, Spawn & Die Join Date: May 2007 Location: The Rapping Community Posts: 24,593	Exhibit #4: *Saxon—Denim and Leather* (1981)** Now I'm starting to get into very unfamiliar NWOBHM territory. As far as I can recall there were no Saxon posters to be found on the walls of my cousins' bedroom and no famous covers of their songs by thrash bands. Aside from having heard the name here and there, I have zero familiarity with them. When I first listened to the opening song of this album, "Princess of the Night", I wasn't sure what to think. It began with a great, fast, almost Motörhead-like riff repeating a few times, then horribly cheesy vocals intruded. But suddenly, just when I thought I was about to endure the kind of album I feared would haunt my NWOBHM experience, the chorus kicked in and the vocals got surprisingly good. This push and pull between cheese and quality continues throughout Denim and Leather. As with the Diamond Head album, I think some of it comes down to the weak production. It's a little shocking that the fourth album by a popular band would be as poorly produced as another band's self-released debut, but that is indeed the case here. There's no single individual who really stands out on this album. Pete Gill's drumming, when you focus on it, seems frankly flat and uninspired. Biff Byford's vocals are sometimes good, sometimes bad, and on average just pretty okay. Same with the guitar riffage of Graham Oliver and Paul Quinn. It's only really Steve Dawson's bass that's in any way notable but even that is hardly earth-shattering. Nevertheless, when all the pieces are put together, these guys have a certain ineffable quality that makes me keep putting this album on. It doesn't shine through all the time—sometimes they come off like the musical equivalent of a guy in a stiff, brand-new leather jacket and detergent scented jeans posturing himself as a grizzled road warrior—but every so often they do bring the heat. It's certainly not a coincidence that I've found I enjoy this album far more in the car than I do at home: Saxon really have a knack for writing solid driving tunes. "Princess of the Night", "Midnight Rider", "Fire in the Sky" and "Denim and Leather" are the strongest examples, but even the lesser songs on here magically sound pretty damn good when you're behind the wheel blasting them. Though it's enjoyable under the right set of circumstances, this album feels to me like a band that is sticking too much to the middle ground. I'd love to either hear them embrace the almost Van Halen like ornamentation hinted at on tracks such as "Out of Control" and "Play It Loud" or go with the Motörhead leaning rawness of "Fire in the Sky" and "Denim and Leather". Either one would be an improvement for me. __________________ A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man Time & Place 25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die last.fm

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10-24-2014, 12:42 AM	#69 (permalink)
William_the_Bloody Music Addict Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: Sunnydale Cemetary Posts: 2,093	I love this album! For me its perfect foot stompin bar music in the vein of AC/DC. Nothing fancy, just some killer guitar riffs, & in rock, that's all you really need. All hail Saxon!