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Old 01-04-2016, 09:06 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tributary Records View Post
Not here to argue.
Then why are you here? This is a forum, where we debate issues, and that invariably involves arguing. Also, your thread has a question mark at the end, so you obviously are asking for opinions. Not all of those will agree with yours, ergo, you are here to argue.
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This thread is about the future of progressive rock. Electronica once created on real time instruments like Tangerine Dream did in the 70's. Today, it is digital sound collaging is it not?
You were the one who brought up the idea of electronic music not being genuine. Don't whine now when people take you to task about it. Threads often begin on one subject and veer all over the place, but this isn't OT: You brought it up.
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Why is that offensive?
You really need me to tell you that, when there are extremely talented musicians here who use computers in their music??
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I remember in school cutting out magazine pages and making collages on poster board. There was some briefly interesting stuff. I don't see that stuff going into art museums often.
Please stop using this as an example. Nobody is saying that music made by stitching together samples of other people's music is superior to or even equal to making it on your own, but bands have been doing this since sampling became popular. Remember Art of Noise?
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Can one of the pro electronica posters here put up a video of some of this great electronica stuff that is so wonderful?
Check the music in YorkeDaddy or Plainview's sig, and see if you can maintain your superior attitude.
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Originally Posted by Tributary Records View Post
A musician implies that you play an instrument. Messing around on a computer is not playing an instrument. Making a song by sound collaging on a computer is not making one a musician. It does make them a digital sound collager.
It's not a bad thing, but it's not playing an instrument. The computer doesn't vibrate in real time when copy and pasting sound files.
Are you being deliberately obtuse, or jsut refusing to see that your argument has been destroyed? I already told you, the guys who make electronic music here PLAY THEIR INSTRUMENTS --- REAL INSTRUMENTS --- AND THEN copy/paste it as they need to. Do I have to repeat that? Please stop this mantra about "music pasted on computer is not real music": you're missing (deliberately or accidentally) the real point. Please acknowledge which it is, as though I'm not an electronic musician and considered by some close-minded , you're annoying me and giving prog rock fans a bad name with your trenchant opinions and pontificating. It's embarrassing. If you want to have a proper debate, acknowledge that you're starting off from a false premise.
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Old 01-04-2016, 09:15 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tributary Records View Post
I get links sent over all the time. I usually don't listen for very long because I find quantization very boring and un original. As soon as one goes in and starts manipulating things with a computer, it's no longer the artist playing those parts. It's something else.

As far as posting links here, I'm respectful of the artists not to do that. But there is plenty of over manipulated nonsense out there, but I don't like to criticize other artists specifically by individual.
That's a very sneaky way to avoid answering the question there. I'm just going to assume that you're conjecturing with no real basis.

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Originally Posted by Tributary Records View Post
Not here to argue. This thread is about the future of progressive rock. Electronica once created on real time instruments like Tangerine Dream did in the 70's. Today, it is digital sound collaging is it not? Why is that offensive?
It's not offensive, but there's no reason not to call them songs. Kind of sounds like you have a disdain for it so you refuse to lump it in with things that you do like.

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I remember in school cutting out magazine pages and making collages on poster board. There was some briefly interesting stuff. I don't see that stuff going into art museums often.
You were probably pretty ****ty at collages, didn't have good marketing, and didn't have the connections to get into a museum. Here's some great collage art that's more advanced than what you'll see at an arts and crafts table:


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Can one of the pro electronica posters here put up a video of some of this great electronica stuff that is so wonderful?
1. You don't have to like electronic music to consider electronic instruments as instruments. Sticking your head in the ground because you don't like the music and continuously shouting that they aren't instruments doesn't do much to strength your case. Anything used to make music is a musical instrument, simple as that. Bang on a toilet seat for percussion? Congratulations, toilet seat, you are now an instrument. You can do all the mental gymnastics that you want about vibrations and all that nonsense, but that won't change that fact.

2. Here you go





Still, whether you may like any of these is beside the point.

3. Getting worked up about how an artist makes music (such as using electronics) only hinders your enjoyment of good music.
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Old 01-05-2016, 11:00 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Hmmm...
It just struck me as odd, because I'd actually be pretty interested to hear progressive rock compositions done just on a computer, but there are very few, almost none, I could find.
The only more or less common usage of programming I keep encountering are programmed drums and this seems to be usually done because a drummer is not available, not as an artistic choice.

So, which kinds of modern or at least post-70s prog have you explored (bands, styles, countries) and what exactly have you disliked about it?

8 bit is composed on a computer, does that count?
King Crimson - 21st century schizoid man 8 Bit - YouTube
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Old 01-05-2016, 11:25 AM   #44 (permalink)
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It sure counts, but I'd prefer an original composition.
And while I dig some 8-bit stuff, I'd like my electronic prog with a more nuanced sound.
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Old 01-05-2016, 02:56 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tributary Records View Post
Not here to argue. This thread is about the future of progressive rock. Electronica once created on real time instruments like Tangerine Dream did in the 70's. Today, it is digital sound collaging is it not? Why is that offensive?

I remember in school cutting out magazine pages and making collages on poster board. There was some briefly interesting stuff. I don't see that stuff going into art museums often.

Can one of the pro electronica posters here put up a video of some of this great electronica stuff that is so wonderful?
One of the first artist I remember talking about music in terms of being a "collage" was Bryan Ferry. His idea came from Art school as well.

People use to communicate by writing letters on loose leaf paper, now they use a computer, they use to order from catalogs, now they order online. They use to use a landline telephone now they use a cellphone/smartphone that can do a hundred things no one a generation ago would dream a phone could do. Even though copy/paste electronica played on launchpads doesn't appeal to me, I see it as part of the evolution of how things work.

While Skrillex uses a software (FM8) for his bass wobbles, (& I see your point "digital sound collaging" isn't that great) there a bunch of other (real) musicians out there that use vintage hardware synthesizers, like Sean McBride and other Minimal Electronic artists, just like Tangerine Dream did. And if there is any point to this it's that if Cold Wave could be forgotten and have a resurgence in interest decades later, and artist strive to be pure to the original form, I don't see why Prog can't.

Momentform - She's Into Clubs - by didital artist, Ianis Lallemand, based in Paris, released on W.T. Records which was founded by William Thomas Burnett.
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Actually, I like you a lot, Nea. That's why I treat you like ****. It's the MB way.

"it counts in our hearts" - ʕººʔ
“I have nothing to offer anybody, except my own confusion.” ― Jack Kerouac.
“If one listens to the wrong kind of music, he will become the wrong kind of person.” – Aristotle.
"If you tried to give Rock and Roll another name, you might call it 'Chuck Berry'." - John Lennon
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Old 01-05-2016, 03:35 PM   #46 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by grindy View Post
Hmmm...
It just struck me as odd, because I'd actually be pretty interested to hear progressive rock compositions done just on a computer, but there are very few, almost none, I could find.
The only more or less common usage of programming I keep encountering are programmed drums and this seems to be usually done because a drummer is not available, not as an artistic choice.
Not exactly prog, but this entire piece was composed and recorded using a sampling keyboard and a computer. Performed entirely by Shawn Lane.

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Old 01-05-2016, 08:19 PM   #47 (permalink)
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Then why are you here? This is a forum, where we debate issues, and that invariably involves arguing. Also, your thread has a question mark at the end, so you obviously are asking for opinions. Not all of those will agree with yours, ergo, you are here to argue.
Well, to be fair, is not arguing also a term for a more heated discussion? That's what people call arguing. Heated disagreements. Discussions can be disagreements, but I think the overall point is that he's not here to raise heat. I know I don't like arguing. I like discussions.

But Tributary, you should at least get some more info on what a musician does before stating something. Trust me when I say music users can easily be offended. Trust. Me. Seriously. Emphasis. I understand you're pretty new here, but I won't assume this is your first forum. Are you a musician?

Now, for my own input: Prog has always been very big, and there's already been one "revival" of prog called Neo-Prog. Not really a revival, but prog for a new era. ANd we still have original prog these days, like Porcupine Tree. If prog goes outside of the mainstream, it's big enough now to get a revival sometime in the future, even if that revival ends up short lived. I mean, we've already had a few revival genres.
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Old 01-05-2016, 09:35 PM   #48 (permalink)
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And we still have original prog these days, like Porcupine Tree.
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Old 01-06-2016, 09:02 AM   #49 (permalink)
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"original" as in new bands.
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Old 01-06-2016, 02:38 PM   #50 (permalink)
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Well, to be fair, is not arguing also a term for a more heated discussion? That's what people call arguing. Heated disagreements. Discussions can be disagreements, but I think the overall point is that he's not here to raise heat. I know I don't like arguing. I like discussions.

But Tributary, you should at least get some more info on what a musician does before stating something. Trust me when I say music users can easily be offended. Trust. Me. Seriously. Emphasis. I understand you're pretty new here, but I won't assume this is your first forum. Are you a musician?

Now, for my own input: Prog has always been very big, and there's already been one "revival" of prog called Neo-Prog. Not really a revival, but prog for a new era. ANd we still have original prog these days, like Porcupine Tree. If prog goes outside of the mainstream, it's big enough now to get a revival sometime in the future, even if that revival ends up short lived. I mean, we've already had a few revival genres.
Well for my money the phrase "not here to argue" indicates a few things: a) hes lost the debate but doesn't want to admit that and so is kind of running off without settling it or admitting defeat b) he has no further fuel for his argument or c) he's a little overwhelmed by the response he got. His thread is in itself a question, and he was the one who loudly proclaimed that the creation of music on or with computers was not "real" music. He's abjectly failed to back this up or argue conclusively, refusing to provide samples even though asked to do so repeatedly (he didn't have to insert the videos, he could have just linked to them. Surely any exposure is good exposure for these artists?) instead falling back on repeating the same points over and over, like a child with its fingers stuck in its ears.

And since you ask, he said in the OP he runs a prog record label or store, so he's more than familiar with musicians I would say, which is another reason why I find his high-handed attitude very annoying. It comes across as the worst accusation levelled at prog down the years, that of being pretentious and arrogant, thinking yourself better than others. This is definitely, without question, the impression he gives me. Don't know about you.

But come on: if you start an argument/debate/discussion, finish it or at least admit defeat.
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