Lord Larehip

Ok, but what do we do to get rap out of the mainstream? As far as I can see, the genie is not going back into the bottle.

GuD

Some people actually have to WORK for a living. They can't just coast off on student loans or trustfunds well into their 30s and expect it all to just work out. There's nothing wrong with authority if it's not oppressive and there's nothing wrong with being a part of the crowd if that's what gets your bills paid. Have you ever been homeless? It ****ing sucks man and I'm sure you'd wear the uniform if homelessness was the alternative. Henry Rollins used to work at Hagen Dasz before Black Flag. Minutemen wrote working class anthems- their parents were mechanics and waitresses. Ian Mackaye's parents were like pastors or missionaries or something I forget which. There's plenty of working class gents and dames who defy religion, myself included. I take some pretty serious offense to your statements, do I come across as some brainwashed automaton to you, poshboy?

__________________
I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc

Mondo Bungle

Of the three times I've been without a home, none of them were all that great.

__________________

Lord Larehip

You're as funny as HHBH!!

GuD

I would really love for you to elaborate on what was funny about that post. Seriously, please enlighten me.

__________________
I spit bullets in my feet
Every time I speak
So I write instead
And still people want me dead
~msc

Lord Larehip

That you actually think I was putting down working people. I'm talking about people who conform just to conform. Who never question anything and when they do it's the wrong questions. Who watch Idol religiously and can't wait to see the winner when he or she goes on tour. Who can't listen to ANYTHING unconventional because they can't process anything different. They don't want anything different.

People who have few if any books in their houses and who use the internet for nothing but porn and social networking. Who believe there's a god who gives a f-uck about them, who proclaim themselves Catholic or Protestant but who don't have a clue what's in the bible except for what their clergyman tells them.

Or those people who don't care about anything except themselves, who want life to be a big f-ucking party. As long as they have their party time they don't give s-hit what's going on in the world.

People who stare at their TV screens for hours when they could be doing ANYTHING ELSE.

It doesn't matter what class they occupy or what their education level is. They are the everyday people who don't want any real change. They are the pathetic, self-pitying whiners who cry, "We're always helping people in other countries, when's someone gonna help me???"

They like rap because it's something they can do without being bothered to learn an instrument.

They want routine, they want to be told what to do, what to believe, what to eat, how to dress, what to drive. It's easier than figuring it out for themselves.

If you or you're family fall into that, well, then I guess it was directed at you. But not because you work. I work too.

William_the_Bloody

I think the obvious point being missed here is race. Both punk and heavy metal are subgenres that evolved from white youths. In the past, mosh pits could be hostile environments for someone with the wrong pigmentation.

Rap evolved from black youths who felt shut out from white society, and the music continues to be the chosen vehicle of expression for non white immigrants in many western nations. Take the rise of Grime music in London.

I love both genres, that being said, they both suck musically, and have done their fair share of damage to the decline of music in western society.

Punk rock is generally simplistic and easy to play rock music consisting of eighth and sixteenth note drives. When Green Day & the Offspring went mainstream it lowered the talent bar for what is acceptable for mainstream rock. They spawned a generation of **** bands, that can not hold a candle to the Pink Floyd, Fleetwood Mac, The Rolling Stones, the Eagles ect.

Rap music is based on sampling beats, which severely restricts your artistic creativity. Sure there are creative geniuses out there like Dr. Dre, but for far too long the music been hijacked by talentless douchebags who rely on image and worn out gangster lingo to sell their records.

Would anyone care to argue that Lil Wayne can hold a candle to Curtis Mayfield?

Lord Larehip

I disagree. Unless you're referring to the skinheads but I saw them beating up whites far more than I saw them beating up anyone else. Punk is very anti-racist. Can't say about metal for certain but the majority of metalheads are not racially motivated. I have friends that are punks and friends that are metalheads and I would say they are more critical of each other than either faction is towards blacks. Metal is more ambivalent towards race but punk is outwardly anti-racist. The very first hardcore band was black.

There are huge numbers of white kids into rap and hip-hop.

Green Day couldn't hold a candle to a real punk band. The other bands you mention also did their share of lowering the bar. None of them were exactly Mozart, Stravinsky, Miles or Bird. Every after-school band I played in in high school did "Train Kept A-Rollin'" a la Aerosmith (who ripped off the Yarbirds version) but none of us ever did it like Tiny Bradshaw and couldn't if we had wanted to. It was far too complex. It's incredible how much you have to know about your instrument to play jazz and (real) R&B. Until I took up double bass, I had no idea. The more you learn, the more you realize there is to know. It seems like there's no end in sight.

I wish rap would get back to the jazz and beat poetry but it is not going to happen.

Curtis Mayfield was a genius. For that matter, so was Percy Mayfield--give him a listen some time.

William_the_Bloody

Your referring to one philosophy of punk, punk is not defined by one political ideology, there is left wing punk, there is right wing punk, there is unbiased and non political punk. The New York hardcore scene had very different social values than California punk scene.

I never said punk or metal was racist, but I implied that particularly during the 80's, bigotry in the punk & metal scene were commonplace amongst many fans, if not some of the bands themselves, it wasn't the paradise of diversity many people like to romanticize it as.

The fact remains that punk and metal were and still are primarily white subculture musical genres. Bad Brains was not the first hardcore band, the first official hardcore release is usually cited as D.O.A.'s hardcore 81. They toured the east coast and had an impact on bands like Minor Threat.

One black band amongst a sea of white bands does not make a diverse musical scene regardless of anti racist factions in punk.


Yes of course there is, rap in the late 80's was the new punk, but it was punk for those people who were not white, and continues to be the musical choice for many non white migrants. If...I believe you did at some point...state that rap sucks, you are essentially telling a whole generation of African Americans that there culture is garbage.


Fair enough but to my knowledge Tiny Bradshaw never had a number 1 hit record, you can correct me if I am wrong. As far as pop music goes, the talent gap between Buddy Holly and Pink Floyd is arguable. The talent gap between Pink Floyd and Green Day is largely noticeable.

Lord Larehip

I sampled different scenes all over the country because I was in the service at the time and I'd have to say punk is predominantly left wing if not extreme left wing. Then the apolitical punks would come next with right wing bringing up the rear--I never met any, personally.

Well, I was there in the 80s and I moshed from Michigan to Massachusetts to New York to Philly to Virginia to Chicago to Milwaukee to St. Louis to Cincinnati to Florida. I can't say I saw any real bigotry. I'm not sure what you mean.

Once again, I've met a lot of black punks. And I've met a lot of black punk musicians. True, it's predominantly white but there are or at least were a significant number of black punks. Frankly, I saw them everywhere I went and corresponded with one who lived in California because I was contributing to a zine he was running. If we are to believe him, he took more flak from other blacks for being punk than he did from whites. Really, whites didn't care because blacks at the punk venues was not at all uncommon. I saw black guys and girls at punk clubs in every city I visited.

Again, I have a DVD called "American Hardcore." It has no narrator, it's just the hardcore bands and promoters and what not talking and they say Bad Brains was the first. Ian Mackaye, if I remember correctly, acknowledges Bad Brains as the first hardcore band. He talks about them quite a bit at any rate. You can take it up with these guys. There were there, they were the movers and shakers. I'll take their word for it.

There was more than one. I mention them specifically because they are said to be the first. Many of the bands had black and white members. The most famous one I can think of is the Dead Kennedys. Their drummer, Darren Henley, is black. He had fans independent of the DKs.

No, it was rap. There were plenty of black punks in the 80s--believe me.

A lot of their culture IS garbage. The out-of-wedlock birthrate is downright ridiculous--upwards of 70% from I am given to understand. The crime rate in black communities still remains the highest in the nation. 500,000 people have left Detroit in an last few years because the crime rate is among the highest in the country. The small businesses have left because they are tired of getting robbed. And a lot of that has to do with the affects of rap on the minds of young black men.