William_the_Bloody

Your referring to one philosophy of punk, punk is not defined by one political ideology, there is left wing punk, there is right wing punk, there is unbiased and non political punk. The New York hardcore scene had very different social values than California punk scene.

I never said punk or metal was racist, but I implied that particularly during the 80's, bigotry in the punk & metal scene were commonplace amongst many fans, if not some of the bands themselves, it wasn't the paradise of diversity many people like to romanticize it as.

The fact remains that punk and metal were and still are primarily white subculture musical genres. Bad Brains was not the first hardcore band, the first official hardcore release is usually cited as D.O.A.'s hardcore 81. They toured the east coast and had an impact on bands like Minor Threat.

One black band amongst a sea of white bands does not make a diverse musical scene regardless of anti racist factions in punk.


Yes of course there is, rap in the late 80's was the new punk, but it was punk for those people who were not white, and continues to be the musical choice for many non white migrants. If...I believe you did at some point...state that rap sucks, you are essentially telling a whole generation of African Americans that there culture is garbage.


Fair enough but to my knowledge Tiny Bradshaw never had a number 1 hit record, you can correct me if I am wrong. As far as pop music goes, the talent gap between Buddy Holly and Pink Floyd is arguable. The talent gap between Pink Floyd and Green Day is largely noticeable.

Lord Larehip

They do interview Henry and Greg separately. I can't remember if either one of them talked about Bad Brains, I'd have to watch it again, but they never claimed they were before anybody else. At least it wasn't in the footage.

Lord Larehip

Yes, Bad Brains switched over to reggae. Again, as hardcore was dying, ad Brains decided to get out of it while the getting was good. They were great musicians. I think it was Ian MacKaye who said he was playing bass until his band was on the same bill as Bad Brains and he got to watch Daryl play bass and Ian said he realized he was wasting his time because Daryl blew him away and Ian became strictly the singer/shrieker (best shrieker in the business) and they got Brian Baker to play bass and then Steve Hansgen.

Minor Threat were also very good musicians. When Brian Baker moved over to guitar and teamed up with Lyle--that was some damn fine guitar-playing going on there.

Suicidal Tendencies were good musicians as were Crucif-ucks--damned good drummer. Dayglo Abortions were good musicians. Fear were great musicians and Lee Ving was really a blues singer.

And needless to say Naked City are excellent musicians--some of the best to be found in ANY genre. And they'll blow your face out to boot.

Lord Larehip

I sampled different scenes all over the country because I was in the service at the time and I'd have to say punk is predominantly left wing if not extreme left wing. Then the apolitical punks would come next with right wing bringing up the rear--I never met any, personally.

Well, I was there in the 80s and I moshed from Michigan to Massachusetts to New York to Philly to Virginia to Chicago to Milwaukee to St. Louis to Cincinnati to Florida. I can't say I saw any real bigotry. I'm not sure what you mean.

Once again, I've met a lot of black punks. And I've met a lot of black punk musicians. True, it's predominantly white but there are or at least were a significant number of black punks. Frankly, I saw them everywhere I went and corresponded with one who lived in California because I was contributing to a zine he was running. If we are to believe him, he took more flak from other blacks for being punk than he did from whites. Really, whites didn't care because blacks at the punk venues was not at all uncommon. I saw black guys and girls at punk clubs in every city I visited.

Again, I have a DVD called "American Hardcore." It has no narrator, it's just the hardcore bands and promoters and what not talking and they say Bad Brains was the first. Ian Mackaye, if I remember correctly, acknowledges Bad Brains as the first hardcore band. He talks about them quite a bit at any rate. You can take it up with these guys. There were there, they were the movers and shakers. I'll take their word for it.

There was more than one. I mention them specifically because they are said to be the first. Many of the bands had black and white members. The most famous one I can think of is the Dead Kennedys. Their drummer, Darren Henley, is black. He had fans independent of the DKs.

No, it was rap. There were plenty of black punks in the 80s--believe me.

A lot of their culture IS garbage. The out-of-wedlock birthrate is downright ridiculous--upwards of 70% from I am given to understand. The crime rate in black communities still remains the highest in the nation. 500,000 people have left Detroit in an last few years because the crime rate is among the highest in the country. The small businesses have left because they are tired of getting robbed. And a lot of that has to do with the affects of rap on the minds of young black men.

William_the_Bloody

Sure there were black punks, Ice T and company use to go punk clubs on the strip in the 80's. You may have not experienced racism in the scene, I did. The New York Hardcore scene for all its right wing values was very diverse, Puerto Rican skinheads, black skinheads, the riot in Southall London in 1981 is another side of the coin.

I have seen the video, D.O.A. is largely considered the first punk band to cross into hardcore, and is known for coining the phrase with the album Hardcore 81.

Historically there is only one notable black hardcore band and that is Bad Brains, I could go through a list of 100 historic punk bands before I get to another notable punk band consisting of all African Americans. Yes there were black punks, but it wasn't rooted in their culture. Black kids in the south Bronx weren't running out in mass to load up on Agnostic Front records.


You said it not me! For a supposed anti racist white punk rocker that argument sounds like something Patrick Buchanan would frame. If your going to take the left wing side on the culture war, than you have to take the responsibility of the family breakdown that has happened since the late 60's onward to both black and WHITE working class communities.

Out of wedlock birthrates and high crime rates isn't a result of Black culture! it is the result of being ghettoized & impoverished from years of racial discrimination. In short, being at the bottom of the food chain in a post culture war environment.

Lord Larehip

You say that as though there is no connection. There's a HUGE connection.

From this article:
Blacks struggle with 72 percent unwed mothers rate - Health - Women's health | NBC News

The black community's 72 percent rate eclipses that of most other groups: 17 percent of Asians, 29 percent of whites, 53 percent of Hispanics and 66 percent of Native Americans were born to unwed mothers in 2008, the most recent year for which government figures are available. The rate for the overall U.S. population was 41 percent.

Further:

Lucas says 42 percent of all black women and 70 percent of professional black women are unmarried.

That means black women of lesser economic status and lower education are actually more likely to be married. So while impoverishment IS a cause of illegitimate birth, it is clearly not the only dynamic at work in the black community.

I visited an online forum a few months ago populated mainly by black women. I didn't post, I just wanted to see what topics were being discussed. The very first thread I saw listed was titled: "Are black men marriageable?" It had thousands of responses and was already three years old and still getting responses every day. Can you imagine white women asking this question about white men? Clearly there is a problem in the black community and it is affecting blacks regardless of their economic status or education level. And if that doesn't have an enormous impact on black culture, what the hell does? If impoverishment and prison don't have an enormous impact on black culture, what the hell does? If a generation of blacks growing up with only one parent doesn't have an enormous impact on black culture, what they hell does? And if a music is telling young black men that to be a success, they need to act like Scarface (a very popular movie among young blacks), well, what do you think is going to happen?

Why Do Rappers Love Scarface?

To the question "Why do black people like Scarface so much?" Here was a black person's answer:

Probably the same reason why most white guys things like likes Jackass the movie. Different tastes for different cultures.

More specifically, because Scarface represents a non-white guy from basically the ghetto, who made it big with toughness, smarts, and force in a country where it's hard to go so far so fast if your not a well off white dude.

So, you see, blacks know it is culture. The only people who don't are bleeding-heart PC liberals who will blame everybody but blacks because they think that would make them a racist.

Again, this excuses blacks for self-destructive trends in their communities which cannot be fixed by anyone BUT blacks themselves. And with this "It's not your fault" mentality, don't expect that to happen any time soon.

Surell

We're still talking about mainstream rap here, which is missing a great portion of the genre. Just check out that Dalek song I posted, or the band Death Grips, or Aesop Rock or countless other rap artists some fellow members could point you to.

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Lord Larehip

Ok, but what do we do to get rap out of the mainstream? As far as I can see, the genie is not going back into the bottle.

William_the_Bloody

I never said there isn't a problem within the black community, I merley stated their problem is the worst because of generations of family breakdown, largely due to historic racism and discrimination, not because they happen to be black.

Black families were broken apart in the south and herded off like cattle for the slave trade. Northern black families were dispossessed and forced into ghetto enclaves.

We now live in a moral relative post Christian society, and they are bearing the blunt of the decline in family values, while being blindsided with the lucrative profits that can be made from prohibition.

For the record, this isn't a political stance, I'm neither left nor right, I'm just stating facts. I'm agnostic & politically ambivalent, I believe that evolution will run its course and therefore most political issues are pre determined either way.


Anyways you made your point. You think that rap sucks, that a lot of African American culture is garbage, and that a small minority of black punk rockers somehow represented of black youth on a whole.

Dr_Rez

Lol you can not seriously be arguing this. If you have been to a third the shows you say you have then you would realize the punk and especially metal crowd are VERY low in black population.

Hell last time I went to Ozzfest with my 2 black friends they were playing find a black guy game because they seemed like the only 2 out of 10000 people. No one is saying none exist but come on dude metal is predominantly white males.

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