No punk today

Surell · 10-12-2013, 03:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Lord Larehip

Even if I accept this as true, there ain't room enough in this town for both of
'em so I pick punk.

That's a pretty ****ed up way of going about things, seeing as these are intangible subjects.

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That's true of hip-hop. Punk was that way from the beginning. Just look at the MC5--by the mid-60s were free jazz fanatics (Rob Tyner took his name from McCoy Tyner) who were avowed anarchists which they preached from the stage and involved in various anarchist and extreme left causes. And those movements all embraced dada if you ever bothered to check--were founded by dadaists. Punk wasn't born from dada, it was continuation of it. There would have been no punk without dada. That not every punk band knew s-hit about dada doesn't prove anything. I know people who hate the Beatles but love all these bands that never would have existed without them.

Well, the Ramones liked jangly pop music and sniffed glue, that may have had just as much influence as dadaism. I'm still pretty adamant in the position that dadaism is not the only reason people opposed war/government. It could have played a part, but I don't think it's the only answer, especially since punks were pretty anti-intellect (i.e., they sniffed glue).

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There was nothing pretentious about dada. They went head on against the Nazis and some ended up in the camps. They had a hell of a lot more guts than a lot of people today who fancy themselves rebellious when their "tude" consists of nothing but zoning out on ecstasy in a f-ucking rave somewhere, who only get mad when the cops interrupt their party.

Pretentious may have been the wrong word, I just mean that it's a very intellectual field that punks don't seem like they would gravitate toward since they were so amateurish in so many aspects.

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Again, that doesn't mean anything because the antiwar consciousness was raised by organizations that were either founded by or spun off of organizations founded by dadaists and other surrealists. The guy carrying a placard protesting a war may not be aware that he's doing this because dadaists came up with it but that's just his ignorance. It's not the reality.

Every single one? I have a hard time believing that.

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And it also gave us the MC5 so there you go.

Indeed.

~~Lord Larehip~~ · 10-12-2013, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Surell

Well, the Ramones liked jangly pop music and sniffed glue, that may have had just as much influence as dadaism. I'm still pretty adamant in the position that dadaism is not the only reason people opposed war/government. It could have played a part, but I don't think it's the only answer, especially since punks were pretty anti-intellect (i.e., they sniffed glue).

How do you know what the Ramones were influenced by? Especially if they were from New York, which is home to about every art movement since Paris lost the title of world's art capital. And yes, that's where many of the dadaists went when the Nazis took over. That's where abstract expressionism was born--from dadaists--and it gave birth to political art movements and organizations such as Up Against the Wall Motherf-uckers who were from New York and they were some truly radical bastards--not the nicest people in the world either (picture Hell's Angels as a bunch of street-artists)--but their influence in the counter-culture is inestimable. Now, you're in a punk band playing all the cool clubs in New York, you're going to meet up with some wild, crazy people. I sure did playing in and around Detroit but then this area is the home of the SDS and similar political groups that, again, had a major impact on the counter-culture. I wouldn't assume the Ramones didn't meet people like that, I could almost guarantee they did. I'm sure if I did, they did. Who knows what all influenced them?

Surell · 10-13-2013, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Larehip

How do you know what the Ramones were influenced by? Especially if they were from New York, which is home to about every art movement since Paris lost the title of world's art capital. And yes, that's where many of the dadaists went when the Nazis took over. That's where abstract expressionism was born--from dadaists--and it gave birth to political art movements and organizations such as Up Against the Wall Motherf-uckers who were from New York and they were some truly radical bastards--not the nicest people in the world either (picture Hell's Angels as a bunch of street-artists)--but their influence in the counter-culture is inestimable. Now, you're in a punk band playing all the cool clubs in New York, you're going to meet up with some wild, crazy people. I sure did playing in and around Detroit but then this area is the home of the SDS and similar political groups that, again, had a major impact on the counter-culture. I wouldn't assume the Ramones didn't meet people like that, I could almost guarantee they did. I'm sure if I did, they did. Who knows what all influenced them?

It is true that they may have met and it is possible that they could have got along, but a full on embrace from a bunch of kids whose only interests were sniffing glue, ****ing, and three chord progressions they could hardly play who were also extremely skeptical of people looking to tell them how things should be, so how much they consciously allowed influence to permeate. Also, I would think abstract expressionism would go back to cubism from around the first world war, but maybe that's nitpicking.

Also, the pop isn't too hard to hear in the Ramones' songwriting, but a list of influences are listed on their Wikipedia.

Mondo Bungle · 10-11-2013, 06:00 PM

Nirvana were more just as punk as a any punk band.

Paul Smeenus · 10-11-2013, 06:06 PM

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Originally Posted by Mondo Bungle

Nirvana were more just as punk as a any punk band.

Certainly true with the Bleach album, before David Geffin applied his polish to Nevermid.

And Alice In Chains Dirt album is IMO one of the 50 best albums ever made. Has nothing to do with punk, has everything to do with musical expression. And heroin. Just because a topic is unpleasant doesn't mean it can't be brilliantly expressed.

~~Lord Larehip~~ · 10-11-2013, 07:00 PM

It's not grunge I hate so much as the idiotic reaction to it. A-ssholes acted like they'd never heard music in their lives. They couldn't get enough of it and it put a lot of bands out of work that had been doing well. Suddenly, places wouldn't hire you if you couldn't play grunge s-hit. The problem for me was that it wasn't very musical. Punk generally wasn't either but it wasn't trying to be. Punk was conceived as anti-music. Grunge was just plain un-musical. Kurt Cobain was a hack. Couldn't play guitar to save his life and people think he's this great, tortured genius. S-hit, his guitar-playing and singing tortured me. Yet he became a musical hero to a generation who couldn't know decent playing if they heard it because, if they listened to Nirvana, they couldn't have heard it because Cobain blew. I wasn't going to play that junk. That was the end of my band days because you had to play grunge to get a gig and I wasn't having it. Grunge killed more scenes than it could ever have created what it did create was musically untalented.

One of my buddies loves Cobain and learned guitar from listening to him. All he knows are power barre chords--nothing else. Like Cobain, he can't play a lead riff. Listen to Nirvana, there's no leads not because they were against them but because Cobain couldn't play. When they did start putting leads into the songs, it was another guitarist they hired in.

Paul Smeenus · 10-11-2013, 07:22 PM

To LL, maybe this will help.

~~Lord Larehip~~ · 10-11-2013, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Smeenus

To LL, maybe this will help.

You're the one who wants to argue. Nobody forcing you to be here on my thread.

Mondo Bungle · 10-11-2013, 07:27 PM

Thurston Moore never ripped any awesome leads, still one of the greatest guitarists of all time. I bet Cobain took a lot of influence from him.

Paul Smeenus · 10-11-2013, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mondo Bungle

Thurston Moore never ripped any awesome leads, still one of the greatest guitarists of all time. I bet Cobain took a lot of influence from him.

Tommy Niemeyer very seldom played leads either (at least with the Accused) and he's outstanding

10-11-2013, 07:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
~~Lord Larehip~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Posts: 899	It's not grunge I hate so much as the idiotic reaction to it. A-ssholes acted like they'd never heard music in their lives. They couldn't get enough of it and it put a lot of bands out of work that had been doing well. Suddenly, places wouldn't hire you if you couldn't play grunge s-hit. The problem for me was that it wasn't very musical. Punk generally wasn't either but it wasn't trying to be. Punk was conceived as anti-music. Grunge was just plain un-musical. Kurt Cobain was a hack. Couldn't play guitar to save his life and people think he's this great, tortured genius. S-hit, his guitar-playing and singing tortured me. Yet he became a musical hero to a generation who couldn't know decent playing if they heard it because, if they listened to Nirvana, they couldn't have heard it because Cobain blew. I wasn't going to play that junk. That was the end of my band days because you had to play grunge to get a gig and I wasn't having it. Grunge killed more scenes than it could ever have created what it did create was musically untalented. One of my buddies loves Cobain and learned guitar from listening to him. All he knows are power barre chords--nothing else. Like Cobain, he can't play a lead riff. Listen to Nirvana, there's no leads not because they were against them but because Cobain couldn't play. When they did start putting leads into the songs, it was another guitarist they hired in.