History of Heavy Metal Thread

Unknown Soldier · 09-18-2009, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Urban Hatemonger

I've never really thought of them as a part of it to be honest, while all of the NWOBHM stuff was going on they'd basically buggered off to the U.S. to crack that market. Plus they had like a 5 album head start on all the other bands of that era.

On the one hand, yes they were well before the explosion of NWOBHM. But their album "British Steel" Is in many ways one of the pivotal releases of this movement, even though people could argue that its not.

One band that hasn`t really been discussed on here is Budgie, who in many ways were seen as one the major influences on the NWOBHM scene.

Unknown Soldier · 09-18-2009, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Certif1ed

The plan here is to explore each stage of the development of heavy metal, on a year-by-year basis.
.

I think this is a superb idea, to start at some sort of beginning and assess it from there. Given that you are something of an authority on this subject, its up to you to fire away. In the meantime I`m going to catch up on Spooky Tooth and Budgie.

Unknown Soldier · 09-18-2009, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almauro

A lot of focus has been placed on Spooky Tooth. I think a decent case has been made for their influence on Sabbath, but being a major influence on Priest is much more problematic. First of all, Spooky Tooth had no influence on the speed and dexterity that Priest played at. You have to look at two other sources...blues rock bands that pushed the envelope of musicianship and speed, as well as rock based prog. bands with exceptional musicianship who also experimented with recording and jazz techniques . Both had the desire to be very loud.

I think the above point is very valid and for that reason Judas Priest were very unique.

Certif1ed · 09-18-2009, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almauro

A lot of focus has been placed on Spooky Tooth. I think a decent case has been made for their influence on Sabbath, but being a major influence on Priest is much more problematic. First of all, Spooky Tooth had no influence on the speed and dexterity that Priest played at. You have to look at two other sources...blues rock bands that pushed the envelope of musicianship and speed, as well as rock based prog. bands with exceptional musicianship who also experimented with recording and jazz techniques . Both had the desire to be very loud.

Indeed - there are all these to consider and more.

As far as speed and dexterity are concerned, look no further than Gary Moore and his band Skid Row, who released their debut in 1969 (and yes, they did sell their name to the 1980s hair metal band!). Talking of jazz techniques, there's John McLaughlin and Mahavishnu, not to mention the likes of Allan Holdsworth and a large number of fusion artistes.

First (probably), there's the Progressive Jazz pianist, Lennie Tristano, who invented novel (and advanced) ways of approaching jazz in a structured form - totally unlike Miles Davis "Cool" jazz approach which inspired so many.

Tristano is notable because he and Bill Evans (who worked with Tristano) taught Joe Satriani, who we all know taught a huge number of influential metal guitarists.

As I said, there's a huge amount that has never really been explored in this area, and that's what I want to explore. I'm not an authority on the subject -and that's kind of the point. I'm a bit fed up with "authorities" who babble on about metal but don't really know what the frick they're talking about.

To be perfectly honest, that incudes me, so I really do welcome all the additional input, as it helps keep me on track. I'm so easily sidetracked, as that Spooky Tooth post proves...

Guybrush · 09-18-2009, 09:08 AM

One immediate problem when people are trying to define heritages and relationships like this is that you don't know how many times a particular trait has appeared on it's own in the history of music. If that sounds confusing, what I mean is that a particular style of playing may have appeared independently in several groups.

Maybe dexterous playing in a metal band could have been inspired by someone like John McLaughlin, but maybe it wasn't. Unless the members have admitted such influence, there's little to go on. People tend to think these things are homologous - that such musical traits can be traced to a common ancestor - but it may often be the human fault of tending to see patterns even where there is none. This is not to say that music doesn't build on the foundations of what comes before it, but it makes sense that if slow playing is the norm, then people are bound to try and play faster. The commonly imagined scenario is then that someone does it first and everyone who does it later takes their inspiration from that pioneer. Of course that's not necessarily the case, they could get the idea on their own - just like the pioneer did.

Anyways, going by actual influence isn't the only option if you want to make a family tree over metal. You could do more of a similarity analysis and just group things together based on how much they're alike in sound and technique. When people try to unravel stuff like this, it's likely a combination of both approaches but I think it could be smart to have in the back of your mind - what are you trying to do here? I think a family tree over metal that included actual influences (if that was possible) would contain a lot of surprises whereas one based on similarity wouldn't. The actual influence tree isn't really possible so you're probably gonna make a similarity tree and correct it with known influences when you can.

Hope I'm not promoting a feeling of futility here, I think such analysis is quite interesting and, of course, coming from a biology background, I would love to see something like a "phylogenetic tree" over music genre(s). In biology, we try to construct these so that they represent actual relationships between organisms but I've yet to see one for music!

Just an idea .. if you want to elaborate on it, I could help.

almauro · 09-18-2009, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toretorden

Maybe dexterous playing in a metal band could have been inspired by someone like John McLaughlin, but maybe it wasn't. Unless the members have admitted such influence, there's little to go on. People tend to think these things are homologous - that such musical traits can be traced to a common ancestor - but it may often be the human fault of tending to see patterns even where there is none.

Just an idea .. if you want to elaborate on it, I could help.

Instead of McLaughlin, I would think Ritchie Blackmore would be the direct link to Priests style. Deep Purple also would strike some catastrophic fear deep in the roots. IE 1974 Burn as well as...

Certif1ed · 09-18-2009, 11:20 AM

I think a tree, although tempting, is a pretty futile idea - it would never be complete, and you couldn't hope to create all the branches (or twigs, come to that, let alone the individual leaves!). I'm not looking for "patterns", but direct, demonstrable links - like the Spooky Tooth one.

I'm not claiming McLaughlin as an influence on Priest, that was just an example of someone who was already playing electric guitar quickly. I could just as easily have picked Les Paul, who influenced every electric guitarist under the sun.

Black Sabbath, though noted for their slow numbers, also played some uptempo ones, as "Children of The Grave" demonstrates - I picked that piece for a reason.

Priest themselves played some very slow songs on their early outings too - it wasn't all uptempo. Indeed, the real energy didn't come until they got a new drummer, Simon Phillips who filled in on "Sin After Sin", and then Les Binks, of course.

Recall that Sabbath and Priest are very closely linked - Priest were managed by Iommi's management company from around 1974, and Sabbath's producer, Rodger Bain, produced their first two albums.

In 1974, The Scorpions, UFO and Queen were already playing "dextrous" high-energy heavy rock music that is really the "First Wave of Heavy Metal". Uli Roth, Michael Schenker and Brian May all had unique styles - not forgetting Mr Blackmore and the earlier generation, who were also capable of high speeds. "Highway Star" is a particularly energetic Purple track, with that solo rhythm consisting mainly of "chugging" 8th notes, which I've seen constant references to as "proto-thrash".

Purple, of course, sounded very different in the late 1960s - amazingly similar to Spooky Tooth in many ways, as if by co-incidence... the strand leading back to psychedelia is, of course, a very short one, as psych only "started" in 1965.

It's clear that jazz styles have caught on in more recent times, and the influence from jazz runs in a direct line from Tristano to Satriani, even though the music of Satriani and his pupils generally has very little to do with Tristano. To get that link, we'd need to look at more modern metal bands and trace it back.

For now, I'm sticking with Sabbath, and what gave rise to their music before moving on to Priest full time. My main research interest is the mid-late 1960s, although I actually grew up with Glam, NWoBHM and Thrash. The 1960s are particularly interesting to me because they were a kind of melting pot, full of incredibly innovative musicians, most of whom disappeared without a trace, yet left an indelible stamp on modern music.

Guybrush · 09-19-2009, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Certif1ed

I think a tree, although tempting, is a pretty futile idea - it would never be complete, and you couldn't hope to create all the branches (or twigs, come to that, let alone the individual leaves!).

That's true in a way, you could never include all metal bands in this. You would either have to analyse the relationship of a fewer selected ones or you would have to analyse the relationship between different groups like subgenres.

almauro · 09-19-2009, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Certif1ed

For now, I'm sticking with Sabbath, and what gave rise to their music before moving on to Priest full time. My main research interest is the mid-late 1960s, although I actually grew up with Glam, NWoBHM and Thrash. The 1960s are particularly interesting to me because they were a kind of melting pot, full of incredibly innovative musicians, most of whom disappeared without a trace, yet left an indelible stamp on modern music.

I think there's a lot of consensus that Sabbath was the first metal band. They were indeed heavy, incorporated dark nihilist themes, and as you stated also played fast and complex. What better time sig. is there than War Pigs? Finally, evolution is often propelled by mutations and in the case of heavy metal, one must mightily factor in Tommy Iommi's finger tips, or lack there of.

Another example of 1969 dark and heavy psychedelica, also covered by Priest.

Seragon Ripper · 09-19-2009, 04:07 PM

I Haven't heard you give any credit to The Beatles for their great contribution. The Beatles brought the whole concept of distorted guitars and singing about world issues

09-18-2009, 09:08 AM	#15 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	One immediate problem when people are trying to define heritages and relationships like this is that you don't know how many times a particular trait has appeared on it's own in the history of music. If that sounds confusing, what I mean is that a particular style of playing may have appeared independently in several groups. Maybe dexterous playing in a metal band could have been inspired by someone like John McLaughlin, but maybe it wasn't. Unless the members have admitted such influence, there's little to go on. People tend to think these things are homologous - that such musical traits can be traced to a common ancestor - but it may often be the human fault of tending to see patterns even where there is none. This is not to say that music doesn't build on the foundations of what comes before it, but it makes sense that if slow playing is the norm, then people are bound to try and play faster. The commonly imagined scenario is then that someone does it first and everyone who does it later takes their inspiration from that pioneer. Of course that's not necessarily the case, they could get the idea on their own - just like the pioneer did. Anyways, going by actual influence isn't the only option if you want to make a family tree over metal. You could do more of a similarity analysis and just group things together based on how much they're alike in sound and technique. When people try to unravel stuff like this, it's likely a combination of both approaches but I think it could be smart to have in the back of your mind - what are you trying to do here? I think a family tree over metal that included actual influences (if that was possible) would contain a lot of surprises whereas one based on similarity wouldn't. The actual influence tree isn't really possible so you're probably gonna make a similarity tree and correct it with known influences when you can. Hope I'm not promoting a feeling of futility here, I think such analysis is quite interesting and, of course, coming from a biology background, I would love to see something like a "phylogenetic tree" over music genre(s). In biology, we try to construct these so that they represent actual relationships between organisms but I've yet to see one for music! Just an idea .. if you want to elaborate on it, I could help. __________________ Something Completely Different

09-19-2009, 04:07 PM	#20 (permalink)
Seragon Ripper Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: Moncton, New Brunswick, Canada Posts: 66	I Haven't heard you give any credit to The Beatles for their great contribution. The Beatles brought the whole concept of distorted guitars and singing about world issues __________________ All Hail Shagrath

09-18-2009, 11:20 AM	#17 (permalink)
Certif1ed Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 194	I think a tree, although tempting, is a pretty futile idea - it would never be complete, and you couldn't hope to create all the branches (or twigs, come to that, let alone the individual leaves!). I'm not looking for "patterns", but direct, demonstrable links - like the Spooky Tooth one. I'm not claiming McLaughlin as an influence on Priest, that was just an example of someone who was already playing electric guitar quickly. I could just as easily have picked Les Paul, who influenced every electric guitarist under the sun. Black Sabbath, though noted for their slow numbers, also played some uptempo ones, as "Children of The Grave" demonstrates - I picked that piece for a reason. Priest themselves played some very slow songs on their early outings too - it wasn't all uptempo. Indeed, the real energy didn't come until they got a new drummer, Simon Phillips who filled in on "Sin After Sin", and then Les Binks, of course. Recall that Sabbath and Priest are very closely linked - Priest were managed by Iommi's management company from around 1974, and Sabbath's producer, Rodger Bain, produced their first two albums. In 1974, The Scorpions, UFO and Queen were already playing "dextrous" high-energy heavy rock music that is really the "First Wave of Heavy Metal". Uli Roth, Michael Schenker and Brian May all had unique styles - not forgetting Mr Blackmore and the earlier generation, who were also capable of high speeds. "Highway Star" is a particularly energetic Purple track, with that solo rhythm consisting mainly of "chugging" 8th notes, which I've seen constant references to as "proto-thrash". Purple, of course, sounded very different in the late 1960s - amazingly similar to Spooky Tooth in many ways, as if by co-incidence... the strand leading back to psychedelia is, of course, a very short one, as psych only "started" in 1965. It's clear that jazz styles have caught on in more recent times, and the influence from jazz runs in a direct line from Tristano to Satriani, even though the music of Satriani and his pupils generally has very little to do with Tristano. To get that link, we'd need to look at more modern metal bands and trace it back. For now, I'm sticking with Sabbath, and what gave rise to their music before moving on to Priest full time. My main research interest is the mid-late 1960s, although I actually grew up with Glam, NWoBHM and Thrash. The 1960s are particularly interesting to me because they were a kind of melting pot, full of incredibly innovative musicians, most of whom disappeared without a trace, yet left an indelible stamp on modern music.