Originally Posted by LOLPOCALYPSE

Never said you were defending Metallica's credibility. I was just making a side note I found interesting that had nothing to do with the rest of the post other than to show that Metallica's jump into commercialism and "selling out" started before The Black Album (hence why the Black Albums contents should not have been shocking).

AJFA on the whole isn't more brutal than any previous release. Especially not "One". At this point we probably are hearing different things. The only thing heavy about the end of "One" is the chug riffing at the end. Heaviness at its most basic. It is one of the reasons the song still finds more frequent radio play on my local "hard rock" station than any other Metallica song. Yes, a "hard rock" station (which they classify as some sort of false mixture of Nirvana, Linkin Park, Red Hot Chili Peppers, U2, Three Days Grace...you get the point). I'm not making this up. "One" was the song that put AJFA in the hands of mainstream suburban teen metal heads and drove the band to a new level of popularity. "Whiplash" didn't do it. "Fade to Black" didn't do it. Even the epic qualities of "Master of Puppets" didn't do it (the album found international, though not mainstream US success). "One" is a song that has a short streak of heaviness, but is ultimately as accessible as "Enter Sandman", despite any differences between the two. It wasn't as if suddenly the masses thought "hey, I just realized this band is pretty good". The only time this happens is when there is an abrupt musical change. The first one Metallica experienced was with AJFA (it went platinum after nine weeks). The second one was even more abrupt with The Black Album, made apparent by its success.

If simple chug riffing is your description of heavy than MAYBE "One" would be somewhere towards the top of the band's heaviest. But seriously, the brutal speed of "Whiplash" (or most anything else from Kill Em All) is way heavier all things accounted for, not to mention it goes through the whole song. "Fade to Black" may be melodic, but it just isn't built for the radio the way "One" happened to be. And even if it was, why didn't it get all the attention "One" did upon release? Melodic doesn't mean accessible.

One other thing that had an effect on The Black Album was the band's ability to perfom AFJA live. It wasn't that the songs were difficult, but rather they were too long. Another In Flames parallel. In Flames abandoned the melodic death metal sound because the songs simply didn't work live. Both these bands put emphasis on their live performances, and when the performances where negatively affected, the music changed. In Metallica's case, it meant shorter songs. It wasn't a simple matter of "going for the money", which is an accusation thrown around quite a bit in the metal community (for many bands, and for all it is equally annoying). Bands must enjoy what they do first and foremost. If you don't like what you play live, you won't last. Metallica's new direction wasn't just because they wanted to "sell out". They took a direction they could have fun with, and people happened to like it. I don't blame them for that.

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

I can partly see the logic of your debate but there are one or two issues here. Do you really believe that the melodic death sound of In Flames wouldn`t work live? I think it was just more of a case of the band trying to put out a more commercially accessible sound and nothing more. Also, its no secret that the songs on AJA were too long (part of its charm really) but longs songs are seen as being less accessible to the music buying public than shorter ones and I think that has more to do with it than anything else. The long song was the in-thing in the 70`s especially by the prog brigade, but by the late 70`s onwards shorter songs in general have been the trend, especially if you want to appeal to the public.

Personally, I think Metallica just sold out for the Black Album, I`ve nothing against commercialism in a group but its pretty obvious that the plan of Hetfield and Ulrich was world domination and they only way to do that was to sell as many albums as they could and sell out as many shows as they could and The Black Album was the perfect solution.

Originally Posted by The Virgin

what? i don't understand you. farming is for vegetables, not for meat. if ou disagree with a farming practice, you disagree on a vegetable. unless you have a different definition of farming.

Originally Posted by Il Duce

i don't see any much complexity in In Flames' earlier melodic death sound - maybe the vocals are harsher and harder to carry off live but that's about it

but i'm speaking as one who likes IF's commercial sound so i'm the worst person to ask about them - my fave IF album is Reroute to Remain - the only IF I don't have is the debut and Whoracle

i think Metallica just got fed-up of having rabid metal fanboys and wanted a more diverse audience - add to that long complex songs are pretty exhausting to play live

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

If you listen to the brilliance of "Whoracle" their best album, you`ll see why I don`t like their more recent stuff.

Metallica basically followed a 3 step formula for world domination which worked:

Step 1: Dominate the thrash market which they did with "Kill Em All" and "Ride the Lightning"

Step 2: Dominate the metal market which they did with "Master of Puppets" and "AJA"

Step 3: Consolidate world domination which they did with "The Black Album" and its subsequent tour putting them in the same league as a band like U2. Once you reach this level you`re big for the rest of your career.

After this they could put out anything good or bad and it didn`t matter as they had reached the big league. It was a simple formula which worked, I doubt if Dave Mustaine had stayed with the band it would`ve worked though

Originally Posted by The Virgin

what? i don't understand you. farming is for vegetables, not for meat. if ou disagree with a farming practice, you disagree on a vegetable. unless you have a different definition of farming.

Originally Posted by Il Duce

well, as long as they don't let him sing

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Originally Posted by Il Duce

i don't see any much complexity in In Flames' earlier melodic death sound - maybe the vocals are harsher and harder to carry off live but that's about it

but i'm speaking as one who likes IF's commercial sound so i'm the worst person to ask about them - my fave IF album is Reroute to Remain - the only IF I don't have is the debut and Whoracle

i think Metallica just got fed-up of having rabid metal fanboys and wanted a more diverse audience - add to that long complex songs are pretty exhausting to play live

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

If you listen to the brilliance of "Whoracle" their best album, you`ll see why I don`t like their more recent stuff.

Metallica basically followed a 3 step formula for world domination which worked:

Step 1: Dominate the thrash market which they did with "Kill Em All" and "Ride the Lightning"

Step 2: Dominate the metal market which they did with "Master of Puppets" and "AJA"

Step 3: Consolidate world domination which they did with "The Black Album" and its subsequent tour putting them in the same league as a band like U2. Once you reach this level you`re big for the rest of your career.

After this they could put out anything good or bad and it didn`t matter as they had reached the big league. It was a simple formula which worked, I doubt if Dave Mustaine had stayed with the band it would`ve worked though