Ravenkin

I liked this one, when my headache goes away ill critique it more

Rainfall

@Nicktarist
Why does age matter? I'm met eight year-olds who are smarter and more mature than my own father (which may not say much, really); critism is critism; if you don't agree with it, you don't have to take their messages to heart.

If a a child speaks words of wisdom, does her age taint her message?

@Erica
May I inform you why I eat the tasty animals you are trying so hard to save (which I applaud, in an indirect way)?
One day I will sit down and read all your stuff, but not tonight.

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Rule #7 – Trust only when trusted.

VEGANGELICA

Hi Nick,
Thanks for reading and for appreciating the storytelling, as well as for your suggestion to make "Africa" more of a story than a documentary about life in Africa (good advice). I do like telling stories.

Hi Ravenkin,
Sorry about your headache. Those are no fun. Thanks for stopping by and I hope you'll feel better soon.

Hiya Rainfall,
Yes, I quite agree, age doesn't matter. And yes yes yes I'd very much like to hear more about your reasons for eating animals (like we've talked about in PMs) because I'm trying to write songs that address the reasons people often have for eating omnivorous diets. Thank you for offering!

--Erica

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VEGANGELICA

Hello to all of you,

First...Nick, Ravenkin, and Rainfall...I want to let you know that I wrote replies to your comments (thank you for them!) in my previous post.

I was planning to share another vegan song relating to how people treat non-human animals, but I decided instead to post the lyrics of a song I finished last week about how people sometimes treat other people. I wrote "Garden" for anyone who has ever been betrayed or used in a relationship. This song makes me sad (and a little angry) when I sing it because it taps into experiences I had long ago.

ERICA'S MUSIC RATING SYSTEM rating (which I still post for AwwSugar in case she comes back) for "Garden" is RRR for "A Relationship song with References to Religion."

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“Garden” by Erica

Say what you will, I can still see your look,
catching my eye as I reached up and took,
plucked in my palm, the fruit from the tree
so you could share knowledge with me.

You were no Adam and I was no Eve
when you said if we ever were told we must leave
we would go side-by-side, two as one, happily
if that meant you’d share knowledge with me.

Claim what you will, I can still feel your hand
pulling me gently down, sweet your demand,
juice from the fruit, the smile on your face,
as you offered me the first taste

saying, “Don’t bow your head, push that shyness away.
There’s no sin, there’s no guilt for which we have to pay,
no more shame, no more emptiness, longing or fear.
Believe in my love. I am here.”

Think what you will, I remember your word
given to me. I still know what I heard:
“Trust me,” you said, “I would never blame you
for something I wanted to do.”

And your promise of joy that this knowledge would bring,
the unknown, the allure, were so tantalizing,
I was caught in your lie, in your arms, didn’t see
the knowledge you sought was of me.

And your gentleness, strength coiled within, left me awed,
but I know now your caring was just a facade,
for you left me there broken where gardens once grew
and the snake in the bower was you.

For you were like God in the story of Eve
when you said it was my fault that I was naive,
though you knew I lacked knowledge of wrong and of right,
yet forbid the fruit you placed in sight.

Oh, you were like Adam – you left me to grieve
when you said it was my fault I chose to believe
though you ate of the fruit willingly, as did I,
not knowing your love was a lie.

I thought I was someone you’d never deceive
when you said if we ever were told we must leave
we would go side-by-side, hand-in-hand, happily
if that meant you’d share knowledge with me.

Oh, you were no Adam and I was no Eve
when you said if we ever were told we must leave
we would go side-by-side, hand-in-hand, happily
for a lifetime of knowledge
with me.

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The Unfan

That is the most hideously cornball wall of text ever.

VEGANGELICA

Heh heh, Unfan, yes I agree "Garden" is somewhat corny. Thanks to your input, I changed one line slightly to remove one kernel from the corn ear: I replaced the words "fig leaf" with the word "shyness," because "fig leaf" always made me snort and roll my eyes when I read it. Thanks for your feedback.

The rest of the poem, I think, will have to stay in its hideously cornball state. While I suspect you probably think the whole thing is cornball, are there particular lines that seem worse than others? If so, I can scrutinize those lines more carefully and reconsider them. Although, really, I almost feel proud to have written something that you feel is "the most hideously cornball wall of text ever," because to create anything that will forever throughout all time overshadow all other cornball texts is quite an achievement!

Say, what songs do you know of that talk about the Adam and Eve story? I'm curious because I know there must be many "Adam and Eve" songs out there, and I'd like to read how other people incorporate this tale into a song.

When I wrote "Garden" I enjoyed combining the topic of betrayal in a relationship with the multiple betrayals that I observe in the story of Adam and Eve. I find this genesis story interesting because the whole premise of Christianity appears to be based on the idea that humans disappointed the deity, and thus the deity, to punish them, doled out mortality, toil and strife, illness and hardship (and labor pains!)...and ever since then humans require "forgiveness" for their "flawed" behaviors and choices.

One betrayal in this genesis story, I feel, is that Adam essentially blamed Eve for having given him the fruit of knowledge that she picked, even though he bit it, too...so he was a willing participant.

Yet the largest betrayal, I feel, is in the actions of the deity itself: knowing that its creations (Adam and then Eve) lacked knowledge of right and of wrong, the deity still placed the Tree of Knowledge (of right and wrong) in the garden, forbidding them to eat its fruit, and then punished them when they ate it, even though the deity *knew* the humans lacked knowledge of right and of wrong and so would be expected not to know that taking the fruit was wrong, even when told it was forbidden.

The genesis story is a Catch-22 for Adam and Eve: they wanted the fruit of knowledge of right and wrong because they lacked such knowledge, yet without the knowledge of right and wrong they would not understand that taking the fruit would be a "wrong" behavior. What does this say about a god that would punish its creations for being naive when it made them that way?

In "Garden" a similar betrayal is going on where the man blames the woman for being naive and for believing him when he said he loved her and wanted to build his life with her, come what may. He also blames her for being willing to be sexual (and the story then shows that he raped her).

In the song, the man's betrayal of the woman is similar to the betrayal of women by men who fault women for having sex on the first date (causing the men to "lose respect" for the women)...although of course if the woman deserves to be looked down upon for this then the man should look down on himself, as well.
--Erica

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The Unfan

I think it is just the whole concept. Adam & Eve is boring subject matter and there is no good way to play it up. It just doesn't work.

VEGANGELICA

Hmm, Unfan, your quote above makes me wonder if you felt the subject matter of "Garden" was, literally, Adam and Eve, because this was not my intention. That is one reason I wrote in the song:

The subject matter of the song (as I view it) is actually the violation of Kant's ethical theory of the Categorical Imperative that people should not use others as a means to an end. In my song "Garden," the "fruit" represents some action that one person, having an ulterior motive, wants another to do. In "Garden" one person is using the other as a means to an end. The end he seeks is satisfaction of his lust, which he achieves by telling the woman lies. There is no "snake" or "serpent" in this garden lying to the woman...instead the serpent is man. On a broader scale, the song is supposed to represent that the whole story of Adam and Eve (religion) is an example of humans with ulterior motives (such as a desire among religious leaders for power) lying to other people (the masses of followers).

It interests me that you feel the Adam and Eve story is so uninteresting, Unfan, because to me any story that is the foundation of several religions (Christianity and Judaism, plus others) in which over 2 billion believe is *fascinating*. I'm also interested in the story of Adam and Eve because I see it as being so full of hypocrisy, cruelty, and irrationality.

I'll be curious what you think of the song if you listen to it when I record it. (I'm trying to memorize the guitar part right now so I don't botch it too terribly during recording). "Garden" is actually one of my favorite songs to play and sing because I have a lot of anger in me that I get out through the song. Maybe you'll relate to the anger even if you don't like the lyrics.
--E

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The Unfan

I was pretty sure it was a metaphor based on this quote.
but your use of the metaphor is pretty overbearing. The intended meaning somehow gets lost for me.

I find it silly to the point that I can't take it seriously at all. The story is inane on the same level as Clifford The Big Red Dog. What I do find interesting is the fact that so many people believe it.

Maybe if you just go RAWWWWWWWWWWRRRRRRRRRRRRR really loud I could relate to the anger. That doesn't make it any more appealing.

VEGANGELICA

Unfan, that's a good point you make (in bold above)...that my intended meaning somehow gets lost underneath the overbearing metaphor.

I agree that it is interesting so many people believe.

What? You don't like Clifford the Big Red Dog?!? The freakishly large, evolutionarily improbable, friendly dog? Who is red? And talks? Ahh, my friend, perhaps you need to read the book where Clifford wears many different cute Halloween outfits and you will at last see the brilliance of this modern incarnation of the "A boy and his dog" theme.

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