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Old 08-06-2009, 01:17 PM   #91 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nicktarist View Post
@VEGANGELICA

Look, I'm going to be quite frank here. You've got something to say, and I deeply respect that. You've got some O.K. poetry here, and although your criticisms are probably overdone, you do a good job with em.

Unfan here is a troll. Trolls are people who make asses of themselves to make you look bad. You've fallen for the hole, and your only digging yourself deeper with this self-righteous attitude that you seem to have picked up. It's the same attitude republicans and democrats pick up when they're near each other. It's like a sickly disease that tears you apart and blinds you from seeing the light on the other end of a dark tunnel. It's a partisan disease.

Look, my point is that you've got nothing to prove to us, and now your only imposing on the hand we held out to you in the beginning (with the exclusion of Unfan). We don't wish to hear the technical theory (because, as a great musician told me, theory only explains where music and poetry has been, not where it's going). We don't want to hear your arguments for PETA. We just want to read some poems.

Poetry was not meant to change people, but to depict change.

anyways that's my 2 cents.

peace,
-nick
the short version:
ignore Unfan like everyone else.
we don't f**king care if you eat meat or not.

thank you.

This message was brought to you by Bipolar disorder.


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I live the new song, erica.
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Old 08-06-2009, 06:12 PM   #92 (permalink)
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I'm not all that well versed in any kind of poetry analysis, but I'll give you a half-assed critique.....you're a good writer and can express yourself clearly...I'm just not a vegetarian, so I don't feel all that emotional when I read the song lyrics. I also have a short attention span...and I can't read very long song lyrics.

I read "dichotomy" for the most part.I think if you want to speak out to other vegetarians you're doing just fine...if you want to convert the meat eaters it would be good skim the lyrics way back...maybe something short and catchy.

....also expand your pallette, there's other things besides veganism to sing about.
Hi, asshat,
Thanks for your suggestions. I agree with you. "Dichotomy" was a song I wrote for my own tastes (and I like long, narrative songs) and is very long. If I want to reach others (especially non-vegetarians) I should do what you suggest: make songs short and catchy. Also, I need to try to find a way to make the song topic emotionally compelling to someone who normally has no emotional feelings toward non-human animals.

I appreciate you looking at what my song goals are (converting meat eaters, for example), and making suggestions to help me meet my goals, even though they aren't your goals. In other words, I appreciate you stepping out of yourself for my sake. Thank you.

Hey! I see in your songwriting collection that you are writing about meat, too! Excellent! The more debate, the better.

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Originally Posted by The Unfan View Post
I find it funny that anyone would stick up for PETA's tactics when they kill roughly 90% of the animals they recieve.
Scans of PETA's reports, which are open for public.
Hi, Unfan,
I was not agreeing or disagreeing with PETA's ad campaigns, but rather simply explaining for Conan that PETA says it creates controversial ad campaigns because then the news agencies cover the campaigns for free, reducing the money PETA has to spend. Given that PETA has limited funds, this is one way to get free press.

Shelters: PETA explains that the PETA shelter you mention takes in mostly abandoned animals who are diseased, severely injured, or dangerous (as well as many animals who are sterilized for the owner at little or no charge to try to combat the huge unwanted pet-animal overpopulation problem); in other words, the shelter is not primarily an adoption center. If you want to learn my opinions about PETA, please PM me and I'll be happy to discuss them with you. There's also a good Wikipedia article about PETA. Say, I see that you appear to dislike what you view as hypocrisy! I dislike hyprocrisy, too.

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Originally Posted by Stone Birds View Post
i think the song "Africa" was about human rights.
Yes, you are right!

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Originally Posted by Nicktarist View Post
@VEGANGELICA

Look, I'm going to be quite frank here. You've got something to say, and I deeply respect that. You've got some O.K. poetry here, and although your criticisms are probably overdone, you do a good job with em.

Unfan here is a troll. Trolls are people who make asses of themselves to make you look bad. [....]

Poetry was not meant to change people, but to depict change.

peace,
-nick
Hi, Nick,
Yes, I realize Unfan would probably be categorized as a "troll," but thank you for letting me know just in case I didn't! I don't mind him trying to say things he thinks will upset me in order for him to have fun. I didn't expect him to come anywhere near me after his comment in my introduction thread. Actually, Unfan amuses *me*: I thought his idea of an instrumental song using a washboard and mandolin (and Captain Beefheart sounds) was quite funny, really. He's witty, too, such as when he says the only vegan song he'd like is an instrumental song so that he could completely ignore the message. That one made me laugh!

While many people currently on MB may not like reading about human and non-human animal ethics issues, which inspire almost all my lyrics, this may not be true 1 week from now, 1 month from now, 1 year from now. I can't predict who will join MusicBanter. For every 100 Unfans, there may be one Fan. While many people do not care whether or not they or I eat meat, eggs, etc., some may be interested in this issue.

Nick, I do not agree with this statement: "Poetry was not made to change people, but to depict change." Poetry is made by people and people have all sorts of aims; therefore, poetry can be and sometimes is written to try to change people. The songs and poetry I like best challenge people to question what they think and how they view the world. I would argue that every song changes people...even if only their emotional state.

--Erica

Last edited by VEGANGELICA; 08-06-2009 at 06:17 PM.
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:41 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Nick, I do not agree with this statement: "Poetry was not made to change people, but to depict change." Poetry is made by people and people have all sorts of aims; therefore, poetry can be and sometimes is written to try to change people. The songs and poetry I like best challenge people to question what they think and how they view the world. I would argue that every song changes people...even if only their emotional state.
poetry is a depiction, change provides context. I guess there are other ways to achieve context (like a good backstory), but if you don't have context, than a poem falls quite easily under the stare of any sort of skepticism--especially mine. What's funny is that some of my favorite artists completely contradict that philosophy and create songs without context whatsoever. It's a sort of 'learn the rule to break the rule all the way' type o' thing I guess.

Quote:
I don't mind him trying to say things he thinks will upset me in order for him to have fun.
No matter how you think or feel about 'im doesn't mean he still can't or (didn't) make you out to be a fool. You never touch a troll whether you like them or not.

Quote:
While many people currently on MB may not like reading about human and non-human animal ethics issues, which inspire almost all my lyrics, this may not be true 1 week from now, 1 month from now, 1 year from now.
The forum doesn't change all that much. But, if your trying to write find the cure to our ailments, than apparently the cure is not working and you have to approach it differently. Questioning us about what moves us would not help you anymore than Edison asking the lightbulb what makes him light up. Of course, you probably already figured that out.

I'm out,
-nick
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Old 08-06-2009, 08:49 PM   #94 (permalink)
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Shelters: PETA explains that the PETA shelter you mention takes in mostly abandoned animals who are diseased, severely injured, or dangerous (as well as many animals who are sterilized for the owner at little or no charge to try to combat the huge unwanted pet-animal overpopulation problem); in other words, the shelter is not primarily an adoption center. If you want to learn my opinions about PETA, please PM me and I'll be happy to discuss them with you. There's also a good Wikipedia article about PETA. Say, I see that you appear to dislike what you view as hypocrisy! I dislike hyprocrisy, too.
It gets worse, PETA affiliates themselves with organizations who arer known for attacking shelters and animal testing facilities. They've even had PETA associates arrested for killing strays in a van and dumping the corpses in random dumpsters. This is a serious health issue for humans. ****, I'm pretty sure PETA isn't pro-animal, but anti-human. If you need news articles I can dig them up.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:40 PM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Nicktarist View Post
poetry is a depiction, change provides context. I guess there are other ways to achieve context (like a good backstory), but if you don't have context, than a poem falls quite easily under the stare of any sort of skepticism--especially mine. What's funny is that some of my favorite artists completely contradict that philosophy and create songs without context whatsoever. It's a sort of 'learn the rule to break the rule all the way' type o' thing I guess.

No matter how you think or feel about 'im doesn't mean he still can't or (didn't) make you out to be a fool. You never touch a troll whether you like them or not.

The forum doesn't change all that much. But, if your trying to write find the cure to our ailments, than apparently the cure is not working and you have to approach it differently. Questioning us about what moves us would not help you anymore than Edison asking the lightbulb what makes him light up. Of course, you probably already figured that out.

I'm out,
-nick
Hi, Nick,
I agree it can be hard to provide a sense of context for a poem...sometimes it is hard to judge if there is enough of one, or not enough, since of course when I write something I have my whole background of thoughts that give me a context for a poem. This is one reason others' reactions to lyrics are helpful.

One of my favorite songs is "Imagine" by John Lennon...a poem aimed at changing people, a plea for peace, I'd say...and I don't think it has a context really, but I feel it works well and is beautiful. "Imagine" is also an example of a human-centered song, as most are. I never really thought of that until today when I re-read the lyrics and saw Lennon writes: "Imagine all the people Sharing all the world." Who is missing from that equation, that divying up of the earth? Anyone who is not a person. Yet even I didn't think of this until today, and I've loved the song for years. I would not say people or society are "ill" but that there are ways of thinking about things that limit many people, including myself, and constrict our viewpoints. Those are the topics I'm interested in and try to write about in my songs.

About being "made out to be fool": when I was in my 20's I learned not to worry overly much about what others feel about me, such as whether I seem like a fool or not to them (this mindset, incidentally, helps a lot with public speaking). This doesn't mean I don't care about people...I do...but I realize I cannot control people's thoughts and I do not take responsibility for their thoughts--that is their responsibility alone.

I do not label people as fools; perhaps people sometimes do things I feel are foolish (such as believing something with little background information or any desire to learn about the background), but this does not make them "fools." If a few people, or many people, or even *all people* think of me as a "fool" on MusicBanter, that is out of my control--and I think they are probably wrong--but life goes on.

The Unfan, whether "Troll" or not, has been helpful to me by inspiring some song ideas. I do not think of him as a troll (regardless what he feels about himself) because I don't label people. You wrote: "You never touch a troll whether you like them or not." I abhor the concept of Untouchables. I directly asked the Unfan for help and he gave it by answering my question about what his reasons are for eating animals. He answered by saying:
Quote:
They taste good, they're healthy for you, and our bodies are made to be able to consume animals.
This gave me more information than many omnivores have shared with me, even in the 3-D world outside the Internet, because most people refuse to talk about why they eat meat. His comments and ideas have already inspired me to start two songs (with lyrics) and to think about one instrumental song, which I hadn't thought of doing before he joked about it.

Also, Unfan's comments (quoted below) show me he appears to care strongly about people and he is concerned about them being attacked, as he correctly notes some animal rights organizations do. This is helpful: it suggests many people see animal rights as opposing human rights, and so that would be a good area for me to write about.

Your lightbulb metaphor is a nice one (very poetic). However, I get more insight into people's minds by asking questions and thinking about their answers than I do by not asking anything and not receiving anything.

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Originally Posted by The Unfan View Post
It gets worse, PETA affiliates themselves with organizations who arer known for attacking shelters and animal testing facilities. They've even had PETA associates arrested for killing strays in a van and dumping the corpses in random dumpsters. This is a serious health issue for humans. ****, I'm pretty sure PETA isn't pro-animal, but anti-human. If you need news articles I can dig them up.
Hi, Unfan,
Yes, I'm aware of PETA's connections with ALF and I'm aware of the PETA employees who were justifiably arrested for dumping corpses of animals they killed. I'm glad you are interested in issues like these and I understand why it would make you angry. I agree these actions are unethical. Yes, please PM me with links or particular reports if you have ones you especially like.
--Erica
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:44 PM   #96 (permalink)
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Hi, Unfan,
Yes, I'm aware of PETA's connections with ALF and I'm aware of the PETA employees who were justifiably arrested for dumping corpses of animals they killed. I'm glad you are interested in issues like these and I understand why it would make you angry. I agree these actions are unethical. Yes, please PM me with links or particular reports if you have ones you especially like.
--Erica
Well if you're aware of it than there is no need for links. On the other hand, why not vent about how much you hate PETA for being unethical about their practices? If it helps bring down PETA that would be veganism I could get behind.
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Old 08-06-2009, 10:49 PM   #97 (permalink)
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Well if you're aware of it than there is no need for links. On the other hand, why not vent about how much you hate PETA for being unethical about their practices? If it helps bring down PETA that would be veganism I could get behind.
Ah-HA! At last, Unfan, I've found a vegan topic that I can write about that might work for you!

One note of clarification: I don't "hate" PETA, because I see that they do do many things that I feel are helpful (such as sterilizing pets when owners are too poor to do so), but I disagree strongly with some of their ad campaigns and financial contributions to organizations that break laws I agree with...and I absolutely am opposed to any animal rights organization harming people.

Your idea of writing a song that challenges the tactics of some animal rights organizations would make a very good song, I feel...a vegan being critical of people harming people in the name of animals.

You see...I hadn't thought of this song idea until you suggested it! Thanks.
--Erica

Last edited by VEGANGELICA; 08-06-2009 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 08-07-2009, 09:39 AM   #98 (permalink)
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when I was in my 20's
You should've said that to begin with! Now there's a whole new perspective on the situation--I had at first thought you were some incredibly wary and talented teenager (as most here are just kids). Please, I've been an ass. Head over to my thread and throw baseless critiques at me please. It's the least I could do for responding disrespectfully to someone twice my age!

I contradict myself way too much.

May I critique your songs properly?
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It only takes one jerk to prove any hypothesis absolutely false. Like, have you ever heard the rumor that you can drop cash on the street in Tokyo and the people are so honest that someone will find it, pick it up, and take it to the cops? Well, that's absolutely 100% not true, because I once found a plain envelope on the ground with "6,000 yen" written on it. Inside was 6,000 yen. I put it in my pocket and kept walking.
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Old 08-08-2009, 09:10 PM   #99 (permalink)
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You should've said that to begin with! Now there's a whole new perspective on the situation--I had at first thought you were some incredibly wary and talented teenager (as most here are just kids). Please, I've been an ass. Head over to my thread and throw baseless critiques at me please. It's the least I could do for responding disrespectfully to someone twice my age!

I contradict myself way too much.

May I critique your songs properly?
Hey Nick,
Thanks for your post. I accept your apology. I hope you know, though, that if my song lyrics and the way I write about animal/human issues seemed to you to be naive or over-critical of people, then I think it is good that you gave me your honest feedback...whether I'm 15, 25, or 35! I understand it would offend readers if they feel I am trying to "cure" the people on MusicBanter. That is always an issue, I think, with what I write, because the songs are intended to change how people view human/animal interactions.

If I could choose, it would be for you to critique posts in my thread as if I were no different than other MB members. In other words, let my work/posts speak for themselves without my age being part of the equation. Being older (and a mom!) doesn't prevent me from using cliches, tired phrasing, over-long lyrics, etc.!

I've seen your helpful critiques of the work of other MB members (such as Stone Bird) over the last several months and my observation is that you treat them all respectfully, regardless of their age. I try to do that, too. Of course I won't throw baseless critiques at you , but I'd be honored if or when you have more time to look at more of my poems/lyrics when I post them.
--Erica
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Old 08-09-2009, 05:28 PM   #100 (permalink)
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I'd be honored if or when you have more time to look at more of my poems/lyrics when I post them.
why thank you for the kind response. I will be waiting patiently for some new material.

peace,
-nick
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It only takes one jerk to prove any hypothesis absolutely false. Like, have you ever heard the rumor that you can drop cash on the street in Tokyo and the people are so honest that someone will find it, pick it up, and take it to the cops? Well, that's absolutely 100% not true, because I once found a plain envelope on the ground with "6,000 yen" written on it. Inside was 6,000 yen. I put it in my pocket and kept walking.
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