NHL Thread

Thom Yorke · 01-08-2014, 02:50 PM

I'm a massive Bergeron fan so I'm obviously biased and this is going to be very long-winded, but the guy is incredible. He got injured in the first game last Olympics (groin) and missed a few games when he got back to the NHL, so you didn't see near the best of him last Olympics.

I know Ninetales goes by all the advanced stats and I don't swear by them by any means, but what he's saying really does echo what he's all about. His line always goes up against the best players on the other team every night (for example, he was exclusively used to shut down Crosby last playoffs, and Chara took Malkin), and they consistently get the puck cleanly out of their own zone and pin other teams in their own d-zones. He's always been like that, and it doesn't matter who he's playing with.

I consider him the most complete player in hockey. He does everything at least "well" and he does some things (defensive play for a forward, positioning, faceoffs, PK ability for a forward, game-to-game consistency, play along the boards) better than basically anyone. I look at other top two-way forwards like Toews and Datysuk and just don't see the same thing when it comes to defense. Those two get a lot of attention because of their offensive prowess to be sure, but I think their defensive games get overrated based on more of the "glamour" type defensive plays like stripping the puck off people, or making a last second backcheck. Bergeron's got some of that in him as well, but he's so good mainly because his positioning is impeccable, and I've never seen someone read the play or be in the right position more at both ends of the ice.

The only real weaknesses he has are that he isn't very fast (although he's still very agile), and he does not take many risks, which may curb his point totals. He still makes a ton of good misdirection passes, but usually looks for the safe play above all else (ie. getting the puck deep, keeping the cycle going, or simply getting the puck on the net).

There's no doubt that his offensive production is being curbed because of the way he plays and the way he is used. If there is a faceoff in the defensive zone, he's always out there. He logs a ridiculous amount of PK time relative to other top 6 forwards, and I'm sure how often he's put in offensive situations is much less than almost any other top line center. Boston is basically nothing but defensive-minded forwards, and when healthy, they have 8 or 9 capable PK forwards, but the Bruins continually insist on sending out their top center first and most often.

And all that's not even considering how he's played in the playoffs. It's cliche to say, but he's a guy you just have to watch all the time to fully appreciate. It's kind of frustrating to see so many people not get how good the guy really is (you're not the first person to question why a guy on pace for 50 points is making the team over Art Ross trophy winners, believe me), but I can't blame them because no one is going to watch all, or even a considerable amount of Bruins games unless they're a Bruins fan. And then when you try to explain to people why he's so good (like I'm doing right now), you just come across as a homer trying to defend your meager 20 goal, 60 point center. If you ask any knowledgeable Boston fan who the best Bruin is, basically every single one will say Bergeron, whereas if you ask people around the league who they think is the best Bruin they'll probably say Chara, Rask, or maybe even Krejci or Lucic. That essentially sums up what he's about.

You can't really show his value in a highlight video, but this one at least shows some of his all-around capabilities.

Laces Out Dan! · 01-08-2014, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

What do people think of Patrice Bergeron on the roster for Canada? I know last time around he was a little hyped up but didn't end up doing that well. He's come pretty far in the last four years, but I don't think he is going to see a lot of ice time in this tournament. I think he has a good face off percentage so maybe he will be a key face off guy for the team but I'm not expecting a whole lot else from him.

I was so glad to hear Bergeron made the squad, as I thought he definitely deserved to. I think besides maybe Datsyuk and Toews, he might be the best 200 ft player in the game. Soo responsible out there.

anticipation · 01-08-2014, 10:56 PM

The Berge is clutch as ****, one of the (very) few truly great two-way centers in the East. What does everyone think about no Giroux? I don't understand the inclusion of Nash/Carter over others but if anyone can tipsy-toe around 2nd class talent (i.e. the Olympics) and score pretty goals it's them. Big bodies with a nice shot but soft as hell, no defensive ability and middling wheels.

Ninetales · 01-08-2014, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thom Yorke

I know Ninetales goes by all the advanced stats and I don't swear by them by any means, but what he's saying really does echo what he's all about. His line always goes up against the best players on the other team every night (for example, he was exclusively used to shut down Crosby last playoffs, and Chara took Malkin), and they consistently get the puck cleanly out of their own zone and pin other teams in their own d-zones. He's always been like that, and it doesn't matter who he's playing with.

Haha yeah. I love analyzing and interpreting stats and i use the fancy stats as more of a reasoning behind what I believe more than anything. Eyes can be deceiving especially on non-substantial plays. Usually they do go along with what is generally known, but it can also be a very good predictor on who will win/lose games in the future and why.

In regards to Nash/Carter, there are about half a dozen players Id take over them (including Giroux) but I dont think they are monumental mistakes. Still both very good players.

Taxman · 01-08-2014, 11:55 PM

When it comes to Bergeron, I agree -he has fully deserved his place. Every team needs a great two-way center, even Canada.

Paul Smeenus · 01-17-2014, 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Smeenus

Speaking of college hockey, anybody ever go to the Frozen Four? It's one of my bucket list things, although I don't think it'll ever happen.

Ree-bump-a-bee-bump.

Anyone? No one?

Burning Down · 01-17-2014, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Smeenus

Ree-bump-a-bee-bump.

Anyone? No one?

Can't say that I know what Frozen Four is. So I guess not.

Paul Smeenus · 01-17-2014, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burning Down

Can't say that I know what Frozen Four is. So I guess not.

It's the US college hockey equivalent to the NCAA basketball "March Madness", hence the name

Men's Ice Hockey Division I Championship | NCAA.com

Burning Down · 01-17-2014, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Smeenus

It's the US college hockey equivalent to the NCAA basketball "March Madness", hence the name

Men's Ice Hockey Division I Championship | NCAA.com

Oh okay, thanks. We're not big on college sports here at all, so we don't hear about this stuff.

Thom Yorke · 01-23-2014, 04:36 PM

A bit past midseason, so why not do one of these.

This is for who should win, not who I think will win.

Hart

Winner: Ben Bishop - It always seems like a cop-out to pick the goalie that is carrying his team, but I really have to this year. No Stamkos and the Lightning still haven't missed a beat.

Runner-Ups: Sidney Crosby - Don't think I really need to explain this one. He does have some help in Pittsburgh, but he's obviously the straw that stirs the drink.

Anze Kopitar - When you look at teams in playoff positions, I'm not sure if one specific player is doing more for his team than Kopitar. He's playing in a ll the key situations, and is giving a team that isn't known for goalscoring a legitimate top line threat. Teams like Boston and St. Louis are doing it more by committee, and teams like Anaheim, San Jose and Chicago have a few stars that are hard to differentiate between.

Lindsay

Winner: Sidney Crosby - So far ahead of the next best in terms of offense, while not exactly hurting his team on D.

Runner-Ups: Ben Bishop - See above; he's just having an exceptional season.

Ryan Getzlaf - I think he's somehow gone a bit under-the-radar this season. He's scoring on a record pace as well as setting things up and is contributing defensively as well.

Norris

Winner: Alex Pietrangelo - Him and Keith are the frontrunners, but I think he's having a more well-rounded season right now.

Runner-Ups: Duncan Keith - Can't argue against him; he's putting up more points than he ever has while still playing is strong defensive game.

Ryan Suter - He's heating up lately and you can't ignore the minutes he logs.

Vezina

Winner: Ben Bishop - See above...

Runner-Ups: Tuukka Rask - Has been very cold lately, but is still having a great season. If you ask me to project to the end of the season, he might be my favourite as I'm not sold on Bishop keeping this up all year.

Carey Price - His stats have plummeted lately, but he's still been in the discussion all year. Harding should get consideration as well, but unfortunately it looks like his shot at this will fall short with his illness.

Selke

Winner: Patrice Bergeron - There is simply nobody better as a two-way forward.

Runner-Ups: Anze Kopitar - Just having a magnificent season as a two-way forward, despite Brown struggling this year.

David Backes - Another nomination for the guy who has evolved into one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL.

Calder

Winner: Torey Krug - Yeah, he has some defensive deficiencies in his game, but he completely turned the Bruins PP around, and 11 goals for a rookie d-man at this point in the season is ridiculous. He's definitely cooled down though, so I'd bet on him being overtaken at the end of the season.

Runner-Ups: Nathan Mackinnon - I think he's done enough to earn this spot. I wasn't really sold on him coming in, but he's transitioned to the NHL better than most.

Chris Kreider - He was a guy who's development had been stagnant for a while, but he's breaking through in a big way right now.

Jack Adams

Winner: Jon Cooper - It's tough to win this award without drastically turning your team around, and that's exactly what Cooper has done.

Runner-Ups: Bruce Boudreau - The guy really knows how to win in the regular season. He's getting the most possible out of his roster.

Patrick Roy - Similar to Cooper, when you drastically turn your team's fortunes around, you're going to get a nomination.

01-08-2014, 11:55 PM	#1655 (permalink)
Taxman watching the wheels Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Finland Posts: 470	When it comes to Bergeron, I agree -he has fully deserved his place. Every team needs a great two-way center, even Canada. __________________ ...

01-08-2014, 02:50 PM	#1651 (permalink)
Thom Yorke Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,848	I'm a massive Bergeron fan so I'm obviously biased and this is going to be very long-winded, but the guy is incredible. He got injured in the first game last Olympics (groin) and missed a few games when he got back to the NHL, so you didn't see near the best of him last Olympics. I know Ninetales goes by all the advanced stats and I don't swear by them by any means, but what he's saying really does echo what he's all about. His line always goes up against the best players on the other team every night (for example, he was exclusively used to shut down Crosby last playoffs, and Chara took Malkin), and they consistently get the puck cleanly out of their own zone and pin other teams in their own d-zones. He's always been like that, and it doesn't matter who he's playing with. I consider him the most complete player in hockey. He does everything at least "well" and he does some things (defensive play for a forward, positioning, faceoffs, PK ability for a forward, game-to-game consistency, play along the boards) better than basically anyone. I look at other top two-way forwards like Toews and Datysuk and just don't see the same thing when it comes to defense. Those two get a lot of attention because of their offensive prowess to be sure, but I think their defensive games get overrated based on more of the "glamour" type defensive plays like stripping the puck off people, or making a last second backcheck. Bergeron's got some of that in him as well, but he's so good mainly because his positioning is impeccable, and I've never seen someone read the play or be in the right position more at both ends of the ice. The only real weaknesses he has are that he isn't very fast (although he's still very agile), and he does not take many risks, which may curb his point totals. He still makes a ton of good misdirection passes, but usually looks for the safe play above all else (ie. getting the puck deep, keeping the cycle going, or simply getting the puck on the net). There's no doubt that his offensive production is being curbed because of the way he plays and the way he is used. If there is a faceoff in the defensive zone, he's always out there. He logs a ridiculous amount of PK time relative to other top 6 forwards, and I'm sure how often he's put in offensive situations is much less than almost any other top line center. Boston is basically nothing but defensive-minded forwards, and when healthy, they have 8 or 9 capable PK forwards, but the Bruins continually insist on sending out their top center first and most often. And all that's not even considering how he's played in the playoffs. It's cliche to say, but he's a guy you just have to watch all the time to fully appreciate. It's kind of frustrating to see so many people not get how good the guy really is (you're not the first person to question why a guy on pace for 50 points is making the team over Art Ross trophy winners, believe me), but I can't blame them because no one is going to watch all, or even a considerable amount of Bruins games unless they're a Bruins fan. And then when you try to explain to people why he's so good (like I'm doing right now), you just come across as a homer trying to defend your meager 20 goal, 60 point center. If you ask any knowledgeable Boston fan who the best Bruin is, basically every single one will say Bergeron, whereas if you ask people around the league who they think is the best Bruin they'll probably say Chara, Rask, or maybe even Krejci or Lucic. That essentially sums up what he's about. You can't really show his value in a highlight video, but this one at least shows some of his all-around capabilities.

01-08-2014, 10:56 PM	#1653 (permalink)
anticipation Music Addict Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 3,565	The Berge is clutch as ****, one of the (very) few truly great two-way centers in the East. What does everyone think about no Giroux? I don't understand the inclusion of Nash/Carter over others but if anyone can tipsy-toe around 2nd class talent (i.e. the Olympics) and score pretty goals it's them. Big bodies with a nice shot but soft as hell, no defensive ability and middling wheels.

01-23-2014, 04:36 PM	#1660 (permalink)
Thom Yorke Music Addict Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,848	A bit past midseason, so why not do one of these. This is for who should win, not who I think will win. Hart Winner: Ben Bishop - It always seems like a cop-out to pick the goalie that is carrying his team, but I really have to this year. No Stamkos and the Lightning still haven't missed a beat. Runner-Ups: Sidney Crosby - Don't think I really need to explain this one. He does have some help in Pittsburgh, but he's obviously the straw that stirs the drink. Anze Kopitar - When you look at teams in playoff positions, I'm not sure if one specific player is doing more for his team than Kopitar. He's playing in a ll the key situations, and is giving a team that isn't known for goalscoring a legitimate top line threat. Teams like Boston and St. Louis are doing it more by committee, and teams like Anaheim, San Jose and Chicago have a few stars that are hard to differentiate between. Lindsay Winner: Sidney Crosby - So far ahead of the next best in terms of offense, while not exactly hurting his team on D. Runner-Ups: Ben Bishop - See above; he's just having an exceptional season. Ryan Getzlaf - I think he's somehow gone a bit under-the-radar this season. He's scoring on a record pace as well as setting things up and is contributing defensively as well. Norris Winner: Alex Pietrangelo - Him and Keith are the frontrunners, but I think he's having a more well-rounded season right now. Runner-Ups: Duncan Keith - Can't argue against him; he's putting up more points than he ever has while still playing is strong defensive game. Ryan Suter - He's heating up lately and you can't ignore the minutes he logs. Vezina Winner: Ben Bishop - See above... Runner-Ups: Tuukka Rask - Has been very cold lately, but is still having a great season. If you ask me to project to the end of the season, he might be my favourite as I'm not sold on Bishop keeping this up all year. Carey Price - His stats have plummeted lately, but he's still been in the discussion all year. Harding should get consideration as well, but unfortunately it looks like his shot at this will fall short with his illness. Selke Winner: Patrice Bergeron - There is simply nobody better as a two-way forward. Runner-Ups: Anze Kopitar - Just having a magnificent season as a two-way forward, despite Brown struggling this year. David Backes - Another nomination for the guy who has evolved into one of the best defensive forwards in the NHL. Calder Winner: Torey Krug - Yeah, he has some defensive deficiencies in his game, but he completely turned the Bruins PP around, and 11 goals for a rookie d-man at this point in the season is ridiculous. He's definitely cooled down though, so I'd bet on him being overtaken at the end of the season. Runner-Ups: Nathan Mackinnon - I think he's done enough to earn this spot. I wasn't really sold on him coming in, but he's transitioned to the NHL better than most. Chris Kreider - He was a guy who's development had been stagnant for a while, but he's breaking through in a big way right now. Jack Adams Winner: Jon Cooper - It's tough to win this award without drastically turning your team around, and that's exactly what Cooper has done. Runner-Ups: Bruce Boudreau - The guy really knows how to win in the regular season. He's getting the most possible out of his roster. Patrick Roy - Similar to Cooper, when you drastically turn your team's fortunes around, you're going to get a nomination.