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Old 02-24-2012, 01:55 AM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Rubato View Post
What's the fundamental difference between Just plotting down notes into a piece of computer software and just playing a few notes on piano? a piano is just a tool, as is the program used to play the piece. Most electronic music tends to fail at being able to use convincing articulation, dynamics and rubato, leaving the end result rather cold, even those that can are severely outmatched by their more traditional counterparts, but their use and end goal is the same, the electronic one just lacks the performance value.
There is actually a big difference between plotting the notes and playing the notes, even if the tune is the same and the sound produced by the computer is accurate and doesn't sound like a "generated piano" tone. A piano, or any other instrument, is not just a tool. There is an important relationship between the player and the instrument that affects how it sounds, especially things like woodwinds/brass, percussion, and stringed instruments. My brother can take my guitar and play something and then I could mimic it on the same set up, but it wouldn't sound nearly as good. He plays better than me, even really easy basic things sound better with him. There are a bunch of factors that go into producing a specific sound that is just not accomplishable by plotting an A note. This can include how hard you push air with your lungs, where your pushing it from, how you position you're hand or strum, or even how you press to the next note on a piano (this is an array of things pertaining to a bunch of different instruments). Modifying these things can have huge impact on the overall sound of a piece and really separates the weekend warriors from the professionals (not trying to discredit the weekend warrior, just saying a professional is usually a bit, or a lot, better).

Besides, have you ever noticed that not everyone can play an instrument. There is a reason. An instrument isn't simply push here and blow and therefore is different from a tool. If it were just a tool then anyone could do it as easily as using a screwdriver (twist here), a hammer (hit there), a saw (do back forth motion), or a power drill (pull trigger). Its different, even with the very basics, not everyone can play basic patterns like a seasoned player. Even if they do the motions correctly, it can still sound like crap. This is a huge distinguishing feature between a mediocre rhythm player and a professional. Even if they're playing an incredibly easy progression, the professional will sound better.
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Old 02-24-2012, 04:51 AM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rnrloser_IX View Post
There is actually a big difference between plotting the notes and playing the notes, even if the tune is the same and the sound produced by the computer is accurate and doesn't sound like a "generated piano" tone. A piano, or any other instrument, is not just a tool. There is an important relationship between the player and the instrument that affects how it sounds, especially things like woodwinds/brass, percussion, and stringed instruments. My brother can take my guitar and play something and then I could mimic it on the same set up, but it wouldn't sound nearly as good. He plays better than me, even really easy basic things sound better with him. There are a bunch of factors that go into producing a specific sound that is just not accomplishable by plotting an A note. This can include how hard you push air with your lungs, where your pushing it from, how you position you're hand or strum, or even how you press to the next note on a piano (this is an array of things pertaining to a bunch of different instruments). Modifying these things can have huge impact on the overall sound of a piece and really separates the weekend warriors from the professionals (not trying to discredit the weekend warrior, just saying a professional is usually a bit, or a lot, better).
you mean like articulation, dynamics and rubato? a musical instrument is more hands on, it gives the user more direct control over the sound produced and after a good few years you can really make the tone your own. Electronic music has been trying to reproduce this, you could tweak every single note individually, it's attack, decay, dynamics and tone by hand, If I'm worried about the subtleties of the finished product I honestly find just playing it on violin to be easier and far less time consuming, if I put as many years into electronic music it would more than likely be the other way round.


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Originally Posted by rnrloser_IX View Post
Besides, have you ever noticed that not everyone can play an instrument. There is a reason. An instrument isn't simply push here and blow and therefore is different from a tool. If it were just a tool then anyone could do it as easily as using a screwdriver (twist here), a hammer (hit there), a saw (do back forth motion), or a power drill (pull trigger). Its different, even with the very basics, not everyone can play basic patterns like a seasoned player. Even if they do the motions correctly, it can still sound like crap. This is a huge distinguishing feature between a mediocre rhythm player and a professional. Even if they're playing an incredibly easy progression, the professional will sound better.
Playing an instrument was mandatory when I was going through school so I'm not sure I can agree with you, it takes a lot more time to get to grips with an instrument than it does with a hammer or screwdriver but it doesn't make it any less of tool. Not everyone can master an instrument I'll give you that, but the same can be said for a lot of tools, anyone can use a hammer and chisel but it takes a lot of work to become a master joiner.

Last edited by Rubato; 02-24-2012 at 06:32 AM.
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Old 02-25-2012, 12:16 AM   #43 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by rnrloser_IX View Post
There is actually a big difference between plotting the notes and playing the notes, even if the tune is the same and the sound produced by the computer is accurate and doesn't sound like a "generated piano" tone. A piano, or any other instrument, is not just a tool. There is an important relationship between the player and the instrument that affects how it sounds, especially things like woodwinds/brass, percussion, and stringed instruments. My brother can take my guitar and play something and then I could mimic it on the same set up, but it wouldn't sound nearly as good. He plays better than me, even really easy basic things sound better with him. There are a bunch of factors that go into producing a specific sound that is just not accomplishable by plotting an A note. This can include how hard you push air with your lungs, where your pushing it from, how you position you're hand or strum, or even how you press to the next note on a piano (this is an array of things pertaining to a bunch of different instruments). Modifying these things can have huge impact on the overall sound of a piece and really separates the weekend warriors from the professionals (not trying to discredit the weekend warrior, just saying a professional is usually a bit, or a lot, better).

Besides, have you ever noticed that not everyone can play an instrument. There is a reason. An instrument isn't simply push here and blow and therefore is different from a tool. If it were just a tool then anyone could do it as easily as using a screwdriver (twist here), a hammer (hit there), a saw (do back forth motion), or a power drill (pull trigger). Its different, even with the very basics, not everyone can play basic patterns like a seasoned player. Even if they do the motions correctly, it can still sound like crap. This is a huge distinguishing feature between a mediocre rhythm player and a professional. Even if they're playing an incredibly easy progression, the professional will sound better.
That is honestly the best post in this thread. you described what I wanted to perfectly.
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Old 02-25-2012, 08:09 AM   #44 (permalink)
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To take this in a personal direction, I'm sort of curious if you'd consider me a musician or not. I've been making music for about 17 years. I took guitar, piano and sax lessons when I was younger, am able to read music with some effort, and have a little understanding of music theory. I make music via computer, generally by creating loops and utilizing a sequencer to some extent to get what I'm going for. I play keyboard, bass and guitar all at a very basic level that would terrify me to try and pull off on stage, but I'm pretty good at taking these pieces, cutting them up and stitching them together to make a song. I also sing, not amazingly well, but good enough to have done so in a couple of bands and to surprise people on the occasional karaoke night.

I usually say "I make music" rather than saying I'm a musician, not because of the computer element, but because it's my hobby not my vocation. I've known plenty of people who make music full time, who've gone to school for it, etc. and it seems kind of presumptuous to put myself on their level.
Just like RezZ, rnr_loserIX totally nailed a significant part of what I was trying to say in a much more eloquent way.

For this specifically though, I'd still consider you a musician because you do have that background. My beef is when you get someone who just downloaded Fruity Loops, ACiD, and Reason, slapped together a bunch of presets, got their idiot buddies to tell them 'huh huh, that's cool, huh' and then turn around and proclaim themselves as musicians.

I understand, and actually, behave the same way in regards to describing myself to most people. Not because I think it's presumptuous to put myself on that level but because most people I meet seem to have adopted a perspective that only people who are actively seeking commercial success through their music count as musicians. I might not be a professional musician, but I'm still a musician (or at least was )
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Old 02-25-2012, 11:50 AM   #45 (permalink)
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I've only read the first page of this thread, but I consider most electronic musicians to be composers. Sampling is one of the best things that has happened to music in recent times (in my opinion). Instead of working exclusively with an instrument, you can take sounds (from off your street, the internet, from another country), work with it, and use it in a composition. Hell, you can take sounds of sex (something extremely personal) and turn it into music.

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Old 02-26-2012, 03:08 PM   #46 (permalink)
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I'd consider people who create electronic music to be musicians and composers.

However, they're not instrumentalists.
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Old 02-26-2012, 04:03 PM   #47 (permalink)
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I'd consider people who create electronic music to be musicians and composers.

However, they're not instrumentalists.
That's a stance I can agree with.
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Old 03-04-2012, 07:57 PM   #48 (permalink)
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Well anyone who creates any type of music is a musician
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Old 03-04-2012, 09:53 PM   #49 (permalink)
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Well anyone who creates any type of music is a musician
Depends on what one considers music.
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Old 03-05-2012, 01:42 AM   #50 (permalink)
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Depends on what one considers music.
The definition of music has been challenged, and debated to death. To me, noise can be music, and no one has any right to tell me otherwise. People always call me pretentious, but I get "that's not music" response a lot when I share things that I like. I tell them that saying something can't be music is more pretentious than saying something can be music. It's aggravating how hypocritical people are about music, they can't step outside of their head for 5 minutes to see something in a different way.
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