Dr_Rez

No **** bro it is a music forum it is elitist as fuvk. Welcome to the internet.


Here is what you are doing to the members of this forum.

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Freebase Dali

I agree with the first part of your post about editing a person's post while making it known that a moderator edited it. Then, if they don't get the message, take further steps. We used to do that more than we do now, and I agree in that we should implement it more. Just so long as people don't accuse us of public shaming, like it was done in the past.

As for your second part, regarding punishment not being possible a while and only on the condition that someone reports it, that's pretty much taking wheels off our bike. If we can't independently verify whether someone is breaking the rules, and must rely on someone reporting it, then this place would be a war zone. Coming from someone who has been doing this for years, and not just here, I can categorically tell you that your idea in this respect would not work.
Of course, I could be misinterpreting what you were saying, so do feel free to clarify if applicable.

We don't need gimmicks to promote good behavior. We need members that want to behave well. The fact that you think we need motivation for people to not be a problem is pretty telling in that you, at least subconsciously, know that the people in question are not interested in being good because it's their nature. Me personally, I'd rather just weed out the bad to make room for the good. I'm not going to sit here and waste time trying to convert the problem people, I'm just going to punish the ones who cause problems. And you're completely right about us needing to be stricter. I think the main problem as of late is that we were far too lenient with the problem people, and that's how this whole mess started. Fortunately for your peace of mind, I don't think we'll be doing that anymore, but I think we might like some input on how to balance the gray areas a bit better. Sopsych has some input, some of which I agree with, but I think we're missing the mark when the primary stance is to reward good behavior with gimmicks, because we're then acknowledging that people are inherently not interested in making this place the kind of place they want to be a part of. And I think that's entirely cynical and insulting.

1. We haven't requested it
2. Based on our previous experiences, it wouldn't be implemented anyway.

Whether it's a good idea or not, I don't know. If the whole idea is to not reinforce cliquish behavior, then it seems to me that a system people can use to elevate another person is completely conducive to cliquish behavior in a community such as ours. Not to mention the fact that we don't need a gimmick in order for people to behave well. We just need people to behave well. If they can't do it on their own, we have mods that can take care of it.

We're not trying to build a society of individuals who love rewards. We're trying to foster a community of people that enjoy talking about music. All we need are people that enjoy talking about music.

I agree, and have seen this myself. It works better in very large forums of thousands of active users, such as city-data. They even have cash prizes for "most helpful" competitions. In our scenario, it would only foster more competition, then after a while you'd have people bubbling up to the surface of the matter complaining that only the friends in a clique are voting their friends up, just like we already have people complaining that posts are not being replied to because of cliques.

If certain people can't see the parallel there, then I am extremely worried.

Ok now I'm extremely worried.

So then your position is that people just stop creating drama to make this place better? I totally agree!

Do you think people are elitist for not responding to your comments?
Do you know how many posts I make that go completely ignored? Lots. And I'm even part of the "elite mod group"... But when I wake up the next day, finally sober, I look back on those posts and realize they were just bad or uninteresting to people. I can't just sit there and blame everyone else because my posts weren't interesting enough to generate feedback.

I understand your feelings, however I think you're misplacing the cause here.
Also, you've been here long enough to be ineligible to claim the things you're claiming. If you had joined a week ago, your claims might hold some weight. But if you're going to blame everyone else for the fact that you haven't become as prolific as you want to be in all the time you've been here, then you're up for a pretty sore disappointment.

Stop attacking me. You see how easy it is to make that claim? I feel insulted. Please follow the rules...

Obviously you can see the value in one single person not dictating the reality of the scenario, and I hope you understand from here on out that the mods are acting on an aggregate of information when things are not clear cut. Posting an eye-rolling smiley is not an attack, otherwise we'd have it removed. Just because you feel a certain way does not make it true. It's the kind of thing you report if you feel you're being attacked, and a team of individuals will determine if it holds weight. There is absolutely no way you can sustain a community with the kind of retribution you're advocating.

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sopsych

Yay. After 30+ pages of discussion (and not counting older threads), a moderator is seriously considering an idea that addresses the basics. Thank you. And you're probably right about relying on reports not being smart. I still think you have to implement that kind of thing gradually, including public announcements so that there is as little surprise as possible, and I suggest you start with picture removal.


No, it's that people instead reply to esoteric points. Such as Kanye West's production over a subtle grenade I rolled about Rod Stewart. When very specific knowledge is required to get dialogue, forum activity suffers.


I'm actually not big on calling out attacks on me, and I wouldn't normally point out an eye-roll. The problem was a lengthy rant about me. It probably didn't contain specific insults that would get a post removed, but its rant nature is about as bad and ought to be unwelcome on this site. People can indicate they dislike members, but discussion shouldn't center around such dislikes. It's the type of thing that could keep a lurker from posting.

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Neapolitan

You gotta be kidding me. Are you serious about Trollheart's "eye-roll," you totally dismissed his dedication to this site with your journal comment and then you are going to belly-ache about his use of emoticons?

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Janszoon

I remember that comment. I assume no one replied to it because it was kind of off-topic for the thread it was posted in and didn't really add anything to the discussion. I didn't bother pointing that out at the time because I was just happy to see you actually talking about music for a change of pace.

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Guybrush

Your comments regarding a reward system have been mentally noted. Considering all of you seem to feel that way, you must be onto something.

You're misunderstanding my position somewhat again. The jist of it is this. Any poster reacts and adapts to his environment. In a certain environment, a poster may be productive and friendly. In a different environment, that same poster may be disruptive and hostile.

I'm not saying that people are not inherently interested in making this place the kind of place they want to be part of. That is a strawman argument. What I'm saying is that it is possible to change the environment of the site so that it discourages bad behaviour and encourages good behaviour. It is possible to change the environment so that people behave better. The mods becoming more strict is a means to that end.

If the environment discourages people being nice, it is hard to be the change. Imagine a forum full of bastards and you're the only one trying to be nice. You'd be eaten alive. If there are no mods, then perhaps taking the high road in a conflict only results in you not defending yourself while your opposition heckle you. You would be less inclined to do it because there is little reward on your part. If mods could protect you against such heckling, it would be easier.

Every forum feature, every member, every mod, every bit of layout and how things work can potentially add positively or negatively to the environment. Just to illustrate with a bizarre example, imagine the users of a forum getting ever so slightly nicer to eachother as a result of changing the background colour from red to green. You know, possibly that could be a miniscule effect - perhaps not even measurable - but it could be there.

In an environment which discourages or even punishes people rising above conflict and looking the other way, being nice and taking the high road will be done by conscious effort despite the negative consequences doing so will have for a member. If that environment doesn't change, how do you expect people to keep it up? But if the environment encourages niceness and taking the high road when conflict arises, people won't need to take the high road out of conscious effort. It's just the natural way to behave in that situation, in that environment.

To use another analogy, you should treat the disease rather than the symptoms. If someone has a fever, you can take a pill to get the temperature down, but it's better to remove the cause of the fever. I admit asking people to be the change is valid, but if it's the only thing done and the environment doesn't change sufficiently and the only real consequence is that they stop to defend themselves from heckling, then they won't keep it up. The forum will inevitably go back into its old shape.

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Neapolitan

I don't have to imagine, I actually belong to such a site, although I wouldn't say I was the only one trying to be nice. Maybe one of the one of the reasons I never fully quit the site is just to show them I haven't been eaten alive.

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Trollheart

Here's another stupid idea from the people who brought you BEER MILKSHAKES! (Red Dwarf in-joke)

Few people want a karma/reward system, and mostly I agree as that can be totally abused. But how about a sort of "member of the week or month" thing, where a member is recognised for the good they have done over the last week/month in promoting a healthy atmosphere in the forum, staying out of drama, sorting things out, creating decent threads etc etc, like a sort of example of the sort of person we want here? It could have its own thread and when people check and see who's been voted (presumably by a panel, maybe not just mods, maybe a PM vote system but the votes would have to say why they're being cast for that person) others might then want to aspire to that sort of behaviour and it might promote, you know, good vibrations?

No? Then I hope you all die in a train crash!
Oh for the love of ... anyone who doesn't realise that's a joke needs to go into hospital now and have a sense of humour implant. It's a simple procedure and your medical insurance will cover it.

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Scarlett O'Hara

I don't even know what to say about all this. What happened to this thread?

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Black Francis

@Troll

well look at that i totally did invent a new word

Thnx for the welcome im surprise ppl still remember me
to add to what you said, yes i agree eventually you get used to this place but as a newcomer it can be kinda hard to adjust to this place cause ppl will pound at any little stupid thing you say..

Not everybody though.. i wanna make clear that some ppl here are very well adjusted and know to debate the subject not debate a person's character

The thing is those ppl get overshadowed by the jerk who attacks everybody
even i know the best way to get attention around here is by being an intellectual jerk to everybody.. we say we don't like drama but this thread alone is proof that we love to dwell on it.

i understand we all have a jerky side and that we like jerks and we secretly chuckle when they own somebody but we can't indulge that over being friendly to ppl because it affects the vibe of the community.

Its like you said, we shape the forums by how we behave on them ^^

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