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A school having a business class is more dangerous than klan rallies.
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The real question is if you actually believe speech is violence then why don't you support state censorship. The state prohibits forms of violence all the time. |
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Ain’t that right elph |
You can use that same argument to advocate legalizing any other form of violence. Basically there's not a single law you can justify, using that framework.
Most anarchists I've come across seem to understand that advocating for certain laws while the state still exists is not at odds with the belief that eventually they would like to see the state disappear. |
Or Google's job.
Can you explain to me what harm is being done by hate speech laws on the books in other countries right now? I don't see how they aren't addressing the same problem you are talking about. The idea that corporations can responsibly thought police but the govt doing it is a slippery slope seems like a rather peculiar pov to me. |
I'm not being hyperbolic. I didn't say they were coming to jail you. I'm asking how those hate speech laws are doing more harm than good. First you said you just don't trust the government to determine hate speech (and so I pointed out that for some reason you do trust corporations to do so) and now you're apparently saying instead that the consequences are too steep. The consequences for other forms of violence are also that you go to jail. Do you disagree with that as well?
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I've known many and haven't met a single one that would support gunning down protestors, even if those protestors happened to differ politically with the free speech advocate. To that end, free speech does not find its advocates solely on one side of the political spectrum. The whole point of free speech is that without it, violence is the only solution. |
I don't support killing protesters.
I just don't understand why certain speech shouldn't be a crime if it's violence that is leading to actual deaths. You have a strange commitment to our particular Constitution for a communist revolutionary. |
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I don't know where you're getting the idea that free speech advocates have some ominous intersection with people who support cops in instances where black men are killed, this seems like a misdirection to me, and a highly specific one at that. What's your point here? And again, youre implying free speech advocates don't mind when protestors are murdered - you're free to have arguments with people you've imagined that you understand, but it doesn't do much to illuminate or reinforce your point of view to others. |
@ elph
It's just strange since you seem like you're appealing to consequentialist logic for silencing Nazis online yet I feel these same arguments could be and in fact are made to defend hate speech laws as well. I'm not even saying it's a bad thing. It really depends on your priorities. I can see the utility in both TOS and hate speech laws. And I see no inclination that in Europe they're descending down the slippery slope to authoritarianism through these sorts of laws so aside from the first amendment I guess I don't understand why it would be any different here. |
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I'll have to take your word on the Gamergate stuff, I'm not familiar with that. Quote:
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whats been going on in washington state and oregon what are the crying about now ..???
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Plus you have the Klan and Neo Nazis able to demonstrate in public with police protection... I think it's fairly easy to make a consequentialist case that this also is ultimately harmful. Yes it's more potent to use online platforms but that just reinforces the idea that censoring people through corporate TOS is more powerful and more effective than doing so through hate speech laws, not that hate speech laws are necessarily beyond the pale. Also, since hate crimes already exist as a category in the United States it seems the skepticism over whether the government is competent at identifying hateful ideolgies could apply to that as well. |
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According to the video, Congress would have to agree to it, which seems very hard to imagine. If there is any rationale to this beyond Trump's deranged lack of any connection to reality, it's likely just setting up the narrative of a fraudulent election in case he loses.
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I’m surprised anyone didn’t see this coming.
Once he does it every congressional election and gubernatorial election will also be contested and the smooth transition of government will be a thing from our past. It’s just another step in a very steady move toward third world disarray. We already have a below third world education, third world health care, third world nutrition, and superstitious conspiracy minded tribal third world culture. Of course our politics are going the same way. How long can a country this armed and this poorly governed avoid a nuclear crisis? Another plague? Black truck genocides? Civil war? Water disputes? Devastated farm land? War with Mexico? Taken offline by China and Russia? The dollar finally bottoming out? |
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I don’t see how anybody could still think we’re going to have a peaceful transition of government. |
People have been speculating about this sorta thing for years tbh. Before the last election people thought he might not willingly accept a loss and since then it's been endlessly debated whether he will leave the office willingly, whether he would go for a 3rd term, how he would try to rig the election, etc.
I don't doubt for a second there's a decent chance he'd try to contest a loss, I just don't think that will work. Seems more likely he could do something to rig/unfairly influence it and get away with that instead. Especially since they've already impeached him once for it and that didn't stick. |
Yeah unless it's a Bush/Gore situation I imagine Trump losing will see the rest of the Republicans casually back away and leave him rambling alone like a madman.
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Murica Maoism First Action *Public executions of black truck owners. https://c4.wallpaperflare.com/wallpa...aper-thumb.jpg |
This is how I suspect the election will go down: the Republicans will use all the voter suppression tricks they have already successfully used in Georgia and elsewhere:
- gerrymandering - closure of polling stations - relocating polling stations to places void of public transport - "typo errors" in polling announcements to give wrong hours/locations etc. - retweeting Russian media disinformation - pedantic/intimidating voter registration They'll also try out some new ones for mail-in ballots: - reduced funding and service of the postal system - arbitrary cut-off deadlines for postal votes - accusastions of fraudulent postal ballots With all those in place, they'll be in a position to either win some states or to get close enough to demand recounts, etc. The GOP won't flat out deny the election result if they lose, but they'll be piecemeal tipping the playing field in their favour with moves that are, each of them alone, plausably excuseable, for eg. "We had to move the polling station out of town for economic reasons." And here's how the GOP could plausably scupper mail-in balloting with each move being, of itself, excusable: (i) reduce postal service, (ii) send out a mailshot with a "mistake" giving a ballot dealine of, say, November 10 (iii) on November 5, send out a correction with the real ballot deadline of November 6. What worries me about the coverage of current poll numbers is that they are making the Dems complacent again. I think the media should analyse all poll results like this: Poll: Biden leads at 60% Adjusted for gerrymandering: 55% Adjusted for inaccessible polling stations: 50% Adjusted for mail-in ballot deadlines: 45% I think it was one of the Lincoln Project guys who said that the Dems turn up to a knife fight with a soup ladle. Didn't we see that in the Barr hearing the other day? Some angry words, but no action. Why didn't they press Barr to recuse himself from any case in which there could be an appearance of impropriety? That could've stopped Trump "activating" Barr at will. |
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Yeah, I can see the hypocrisy if that's what you mean. |
One of the Twitter hackers was a 17 year old from Florida
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At my middle school growing up down there some kid shot a teacher and they also charged him as an adult. He was like 13. Should be getting out in 8 years.
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So America and China are the same. Got it.
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