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Old 06-14-2009, 12:43 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Socialization of healthcare is the only answer. That or the total abolition of the health insurance industry. Let's make hospitals and doctors compete with each other just like every other type of business has too.
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:13 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IamAlejo View Post
lmao please tell me you thin i'm quoting the declaration of independence to argue for a trillion dollar+ nationalized healthcare

[blanet statement not aimed at anyone]
It's amazing to me that a lot of the people that were so mad about government wiretaps and how that information could be misused, etc, are comfortable with the thought of this. Wiretap info could be misused, but no chance in hell if they have all the info on their medical history [alcohol abuse, drug usage, mental health] won't be misused at all.

Throw on top the budget deficit last year was ~$480 billion. We are already projected to have ~$1.8 trillion this year. GREAT time to enact this.
....whether health care is public or private, records of your medical history still exist...and the government could just easily spy on one as the other.
There's also this thing called "doctor-patient" confidentiality, that still exists in countries with public health care

....nobodies forcing you to use a public system. I'm glad it will be available to people who can't afford private health care though.
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Old 06-14-2009, 01:23 AM   #23 (permalink)
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No maybe not, but all those people who worked extra hard to earn there money (and also started with nothing) now must pay more in taxes. My entire family went from nothing to something do to sheer hard work, regardless of the huge loans and many hours worked.

.....what if while trying to go from something to nothing, one of your family members was struck with cancer,multiple sclerosis, or something equally as horrible? What if they were at the point where they hadn't earned enough to afford decent health care?....or they had to pay so much in health care costs that they were put even further into poverty.

....to alejo: the tens of millions of people without health insurance could give less than a shit about how learned you are in the constitution.

....how is health care any less important as a public service than education, or the police or firemen?
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:13 AM   #24 (permalink)
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The asshat has it. If you think you shouldn't need to support other people by contributing to health care then you don't need a police force, firemen, an army, you don't need a government, prison system, etc. whatnot. Go live in somewhere lawless. Subsidized health care is just an extension of other services we all put in for to assure the society runs smoothly. And hey, even if you are paying higher taxes, you don't have to pay insurance premiums anymore, so either way you're still paying. Think of it as gaining the constant convenience of not having to budget for unexpected health problems rather than losing the independence of choosing your own insurance plan.

I live in Canada and have very little to complain about with socialized health care. I'm just now healing from a broken ankle which I haven't paid a cent for aside from my leg cast ($100 because I wanted the nice one). The surgeon is a really affable guy and has helped me along with the entire recovery. I waited a couple miserable days before and after surgery but there was nothing more money could have done to improve the situation. I think not having socialized health care is essentially nothing short of barbarism.
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:05 AM   #25 (permalink)
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....to alejo: the tens of millions of people without health insurance could give less than a shit about how learned you are in the constitution.
I've got to run to wor so I'll respond to the rest later, but really hard to tae your point seriously when you can't tell the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Greeeaaaattt education.
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Old 06-14-2009, 02:34 PM   #26 (permalink)
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I've got to run to wor so I'll respond to the rest later, but really hard to tae your point seriously when you can't tell the difference between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution. Greeeaaaattt education.

....no I'm not too knowledgable about either. My point is that it's irelevant to what we were talking about....unless you're trying to imply that healthcare is being imposed by a tyrannical government...how dare they make you pay more in taxes so that some people can be treated in a humane way.

...just about every other time the government has shown a little compassion towards poorer folks there's been outrage and cries of "opression" by the richer folks...the 8 hour work day, minimum wage, stopping child labour, etc.

...what's really absurd is that health care is considered a privilege for people who have worked hard enough to afford it.You still live in a society with other people, and there is no way in hell that you'd be able to enjoy a higher standing of living without these people.

...my point is still valid, even though I worded it wrong.We're not living in the 18th century, you should be trying to argue why it isn't a good idea now. Capitalism wouldn't be able to sustain itself without making some concessions to social welfare. If we had stayed the course of 19th century "laissez-faire" societies, we'd probably all be communists by now.
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Old 06-14-2009, 02:40 PM   #27 (permalink)
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...just about every other time the government has shown a little compassion towards poorer folks there's been outrage and cries of "opression" by the richer folks...the 8 hour work day, minimum wage, stopping child labour, etc.
They want the poor folks to stay in that status and get no advantages in life whatsoever until they stop being poor on their own merits. That is exactly why the gap between the upper class and the lower class continues to grow wider and further apart.
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:30 PM   #28 (permalink)
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The asshat has it. If you think you shouldn't need to support other people by contributing to health care then you don't need a police force, firemen, an army, you don't need a government, prison system, etc. whatnot.
To be fair, those aren't the same thing. Police and all are social goods, things that wouldn't be produced in a complete laissez-fair market. Healthcare isn't a public good, people would pay for that stuff themselves as long as they could afford it.
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:35 PM   #29 (permalink)
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To be fair, those aren't the same thing. Police and all are social goods, things that wouldn't be produced in a complete laissez-fair market. Healthcare isn't a public good, people would pay for that stuff themselves as long as they could afford it.
Bull****. In a complete laissez-faire market there would be private security, private firemen, etc. etc. They actually used to have firemen who you had to sign up for and basically pay protection money to to assure they would put your house out if it was on fire. Society just decided that those things are vital for everyone, not just the rich, so essentially we socialized them. For some idiotic reason the United States hasn't gotten there with healthcare yet, even though with their propensity for gun ownership you'd think they'd have abolished the police and let citizens enforce everything.
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Old 06-14-2009, 04:55 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Yeah, firemen and cops were there for the rich. That's the point. You're forgetting about the drop-in-the-bucket problem. Think about National Defense. In a free market there is no incentive for you to pay for your share. The defense as a whole is such a giant thing, that your small contribution will go unnoticed. However, it's not something that you can give to only the people that pay for it. Everyone enjoys its benifits regardless of what they chipped in. It's the same thing with firemen. They wont go stand by a house while it's burning just to make sure the fire doesn't get out of hand and spread to buildings that paid for fire protection. Everyone enjoys it's benifits so it wouldn't hurt not to pay for it. That's why there has to be a tax, to make sure everyone contributes. In healthcare, it's easy to exclude the people that don't pay. You need treatment, you pay. This example is exclusive, therefore not a social good.

I'm with you and all. I'm just helping you out because some people like to argue by shooting down moot points of your diatribe, making you look like 'you don't know what you're talking about,' instead of talking about the overall problem.
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