The Christianity Thread

[DwnWthVwls]

I do not recognize divine existence therefore I can not recognize divine law or the sins attached to it. How does someone who is not convinced of divine existence even began at step one?

[MicShazam]

Originally Posted by JacquelineDeane55

STEP 1 – GOD’S PURPOSE: PEACE & LIFE
God loves you and wants you to experience peace and abundant, eternal life




... but he created you as a fallible, likely sinner that might well be hellbound, despite God supposedly having every sort of power to prevent the possibility of eternal damnation. Sounds a lot less like love than it sounds like some nasty, playful evil. Like a cat with a mouse.

Atheists allways bring out this old argument, but that's because it's kind of inescapable. Don't pretend your god can both be all powerful, good, yet allowing of immense evil.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

How can you admit youre a sinner if you cant be a sinner without already having faith? I do not recognize divine law therefore i do not recognize sin. I recognize myself as a biproduct of a larger system that does not recognize perfection.

It's a construct developed by the church. You might not (and should not) recognize the church's legal authority, but surely you can recognize what qualifies as sin.

[DwnWthVwls]

How can you recognize sin as someone who doesn't believe in God? or maybe I should say as an athiest, as referencing God may not be fitting for all Theists/Deists.

Sin is, by definition, a transgression of divine law. You can't break the laws of something that does not exist.

Let's try it like this: If some organization tomorrow decided that cats have a moral laws, "Catisms", and anyone who breaks those laws is a "Catist", are you a "Catist"? They are manufactured and have no place in reality. You would need evidence of their existence to be labeled as someone who goes against them.

[MicShazam]

You can understand what's being seen as sin in the eyes of various religions, but as an atheist you're not going to agree with their views on that. I can't see any deeper level on which an atheist can recognize various actions as sins. Which I'm guessing is what Frownland meant?

[DwnWthVwls]

It's not a matter of what's viewed as sin or if I agree with it, it's a question of is sin ACTUALLY a thing, such as other laws in reality.

I can choose not to recognize the laws of the US or other countries, I'd still be a lawbreaker because those things are demonstrably real.

[MicShazam]

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

It's not a matter of what's viewed as sin, it's a question of is sin ACTUALLY a thing, such as other laws in reality.

That's what I mean. I think the two of you actually agree.

[DwnWthVwls]

No, I do not recognize what qualifies as sin, because sin is not real to me, nothing qualifies as sin. I recognize what other people qualify as sin, but there is a difference between those two things.

If he agrees with that than sure we agree.

Edit: It is literally impossible to recognize myself as a sinner.

[Frownland]

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

How can you recognize sin as someone who doesn't believe in God? or maybe I should say as an athiest, as referencing God may not be fitting for all Theists/Deists.

Sin is, by definition, a transgression of divine law. You can't break the laws of something that does not exist.

Let's try it like this: If some organization tomorrow decided that cats have a moral laws, "Catisms", and anyone who breaks those laws is a "Catist", are you a "Catist"? They are manufactured and have no place in reality. You would need evidence of their existence to be labeled as someone who goes against them.

I disagree with the bolded assumption. Divine law is made with respects to god, but who defines it? You can address that you qualify as a sinner simply on a definitional (is the right word definitive? idk) basis. It does not imply that you respect the authority of those laws, nor does it imply that justice for breaking those laws is legitimate. It just means that you don't adhere to them. So yes, I'm a Catist but I'm not particularly concerned about it.

[DwnWthVwls]

Do you understand the distinction between recognizing what being a sinner is defined as versus what being a sinner is in reality?

You're argument is not logical, and I think you are intentionally ignoring the nuance of my position.