Let's talk about capitalism

The Batlord · 10-06-2016, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

What society needs is a strong labour movement in all sectors of society to counteract the abuses of corporate power, and in today's day and age, we have to have multinational, international unions that support workers in several countries. The only way we can bring wages back up in North America, is by bringing wages up in China and Mexico. Whether you like it or not were all in this together.

I've never understood how libertarians could think that abolishing minimum wage and allowing market competition to bring back American manufacturing would be a good idea. People in countries that have "our" outsourced jobs make next to nothing. To be competitive we would have to make comparable wages. So we'd be going back to the industrial revolution basically.

William_the_Bloody · 10-06-2016, 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I've never understood how libertarians could think that abolishing minimum wage and allowing market competition to bring back American manufacturing would be a good idea. People in countries that have "our" outsourced jobs make next to nothing. To be competitive we would have to make comparable wages. So we'd be going back to the industrial revolution basically.

The argument is that getting rid of the minimum wage reduces unemployment, and although there is some truth to this, it does not make a substantial difference from what I have read. Of course many of these countries without a MW are premier welfare states like Denmark, but even mean lean Asian countries like Hong Kong (China) were eventually forced to bring in a minimum wage.

It's a very popular idea amongst business circles, because reducing the amount of pay to workers, means a company can cut its overhead and pay out more stock or dividents to your shareholders, or have more money to reinvest.

It's a very unpopular idea amongst labour workers, because it is effectively a slave wage if you can barely survive on it, making you more dependent upon your employer, which means they can push you harder and longer in hopes you will get that raise or promotion to get out of the doll drums. This is why I against abolishing the minimum wage. I think its shifts the power relations too much in the favour of the employer.

Anyhow, for me personally, libertarianism is similar to Marxism, in that they are both pedaling utopian bull$hit, they just have completely different views on how to get there.

The Batlord · 10-06-2016, 11:54 PM

I understand the gist of it, and why corporations would like it, but there being so many working class people who are so militant about the idea just seems like Stockholm Syndrome, combined with the usual knee jerk contrarianism just because those damn dirty commies think the opposite. It's like they refuse to grasp the concept that if big government will abuse its power then unelected corporations should be at least as mistrusted.

William_the_Bloody · 10-07-2016, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

I understand the gist of it, and why corporations would like it, but there being so many working class people who are so militant about the idea just seems like Stockholm Syndrome, combined with the usual knee jerk contrarianism just because those damn dirty commies think the opposite. It's like they refuse to grasp the concept that if big government will abuse its power then unelected corporations should be at least as mistrusted.

There is a strong strain libertarinism in your culture going all the way back to Thomas Jefferson.

The concept for blue collar republicans and its advocates, (Newt Gingrich, Pat Buchanan ect), has always been an anti free trade country with strict immigration that ensures prosperous manufacturing jobs for the vast majority of the population, while limiting the welfare state as much as possible. (How realistic this is? I have no idea)

Unfortunately this ideology is the complete opposite of the classical liberals, libertarians and its advocates (Koch brothers, Jeb Bush) who are the elites within the Republican party, who want more free trade and mass immigration.

This explains the civil war going on in the Republican Party right now, its basically a class war and it is why I am somewhat sympathetic to Trump, If he wins it would put the screws to the 1%. If he loses, they will undoubtly regain control of the party and find a candidate that will beat Hillary in 4 years.

Anyways I'm getting off topic. I don't get either, being poor and advocating for a no minimum wage is like running around in prison with a mini skirt on....your just asking to get fu(ked.

Isbjørn · 10-07-2016, 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

It wouldn't be fair at all, in fact it would be your worst F'n nightmare!

Studies have shown that a great deal of people who are in the top echolons of power are either people with extremely type A, aggressive personalities, or people who are good at articulating themselves socially (ie; bull$hitters like Trump)

If you were to nationalize everything and get rid of private enterprise, you would simply allow these people to consolidate and concentrate their power at the top like they did in the Soviet Union, and there would be no escape.

At least in a capitalist society if your boss is a dick at the Home Depot you can go work for the competition, imagine if you were stuck under one big government corporation and your only chance of escaping a dick was by transferring out.

What society needs is a strong labour movement in all sectors of society to counteract the abuses of corporate power, and in today's day and age, we have to have multinational, international unions that support workers in several countries. The only way we can bring wages back up in North America, is by bringing wages up in China and Mexico. Whether you like it or not were all in this together.

Pretty spot on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by William_the_Bloody

Anyhow, for me personally, libertarianism is similar to Marxism, in that they are both pedaling utopian bull$hit, they just have completely different views on how to get there.

Marxism and libertarianism (or liberalism) are about as different they can get. Marxism calls for the working class to take over the means of production, while libertarianism seeks to legitimize private ownership of the means of production. Marxism is aimed at the working class, while libertarianism is aimed at the middle- and upper classes.

The Batlord · 10-07-2016, 02:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isbjørn

Pretty spot on.

Marxism and libertarianism (or liberalism) are about as different they can get. Marxism calls for the working class to take over the means of production, while libertarianism seeks to legitimize private ownership of the means of production. Marxism is aimed at the working class, while libertarianism is aimed at the middle- and upper classes.

Nah, marxism is aimed at the intellectual class who will never be the working class.

Isbjørn · 10-07-2016, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Nah, marxism is aimed at the intellectual class who will never be the working class.

It's aimed at the working class, but that doesn't mean it hits very well.

The Batlord · 10-07-2016, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isbjørn

It's aimed at the working class, but that doesn't mean it hits very well.

You're a teenager. You have no real frame of reference.

William_the_Bloody · 10-07-2016, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Isbjørn

Pretty spot on.

Marxism and libertarianism (or liberalism) are about as different they can get. Marxism calls for the working class to take over the means of production, while libertarianism seeks to legitimize private ownership of the means of production. Marxism is aimed at the working class, while libertarianism is aimed at the middle- and upper classes.

I'm quite aware of that, they are at the polar opposites of the ideological spectrum economically, but they both peddle utoptian bull$hit.

I guess I should make the point I'm not all against classical liberalism, and I understand the argument of increasing the population in the United States through a North American Union with Canada and Mexico in order to remain competitive with China, the EU and India, but at the end of the day, for me, workers rights trump empire.

innerspaceboy · 10-07-2016, 07:01 PM

I wanted to get down with the utopian idealism bull$hit, and this hit my mailbox this afternoon.

Curious to see what he has to say.

View Poll Results: What should we do about capitalism?
Replace it with socialism, through parliamentary reforms	5	15.63%
Replace it with socialism, through revolution	5	15.63%
Use more public regulations to counteract some of its consequences	13	40.63%
Scale down public regulations to let the free market run its course	6	18.75%
Nothing, it’s fine as it is	3	9.38%
Voters: 32. You may not vote on this poll