Soulflower

Biggie did not write any of his music and 2pac was more lyrically superior. The subject matter of his music is more broader and he was lyrically more talented. I am not knocking Biggie but he is not better than 2pac that is my opinion.

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2Pac was preachy and massively overrated. I can see how his words affected black people struggling to make ends meet and dealing with discrimination at the time, but to me there are far more rappers, before and since Pac, that were able to touch more people and be more broadly relatable.

Pac fans point to his main strength being his lyrical content and his 'message' but when his lyrics and message don't resonate with the majority of people who listen to hip-hop in modern times (the paradigm has shifted, and a lot of hip-hop fans are white middle class people, i.e. Janzoon, Goofle, Frownland, etc) I don't see how that's a relevant argument in putting him on a pedestal as better than BIG.

BIG was better at the actual art of rapping, he was able to get his words out in more intricate patterns and touch a far wider demographic, even if he had party tunes, there are more people that those will appeal to rather than snoozefests with agonizingly painful choruses such as 'Brenda Has A Baby'

However, I don't think ultimately to go to back to Frownland's original post, that it is unpopular to not rate either man too highly. It seems at least among educated music fans that we identify each mans merits and legacies but we acknowledge that they're not as technically gifted as rappers when compared with others such as Nas, Andre 3000, Rakim, Kendrick Lamar, DOOM, Big L, Drake, Pun, etc.

I feel though that this is one of the tiredest arguments on this forum, but I'm preparing for a 'here we go again' type feeling.

Paul Smeenus

Learn English.

Furthermore, when you say

That stops being your opinion and becomes you setting everyone straight as to what is and is not hip hop. You are not the arbiter of musical taste. Phrase yourself accordingly.

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I find this particularly interesting too, but for different reasons.

If we're talking about 'REAL' hip-hop, surely we mean the embodiment of the founding principles of hip-hop.
Because if that's the case, I don't remember 2Pac having a particularly illustrious career as a DJ nor street dancer nor graffiti artist.

Surely again, 2Pac lost a lot of his credibility as a 'real' hip hop artist when he fled New York. As surely if we're talking about how authentic an artist is in hip-hop they should be at the the source of all things hip-hop.

If you mean 'real' in terms of how authentic the artist was in regards to what they were saying and conveying. I'm sure 2Pac went to drama school. Doesn't sound very thuglike to me. But what would I know, I'm obviously not of a position to comment on what is 'real' in a largely manufactured and unauthentic landscape.

Soulflower

Preachy...meaning?


That is how Hip Hop was created.

So of course his illustrations of how African Americans were being discriminated against is going to impact African Americans since it is relatable.




I agree.... but this discussion is between 2pac and Biggie and objectively 2pac was far more talented.




That's because he was a talented songwriter. He not only was a rapper but he also was a gifted poet. Messages and lyrical content is important especially in Hip Hop. I just think people say that because unlike Biggie, Snoop Dog, Dr. Dre etc (other rappers of that era) 2pac's lyrics were more complex and discussed deeper issues. He was able to influence people with his music which is more powerful than a gimmicky song.




There was NEVER a paradigm shift. Hip Hop was not created or intended for white people...PERIOD.

That's the hard truth.

I would not expect for you to understand how during the early 90's black men were getting beat against their will by crooked LA racist cops or how black men get questioned or shot because they are black (Trayvon Martin 2012- still happens today!!) or the socioeconomic inequality that African Americans experience because they are black . You do not experience any of those things because of your skin makes you privileged and I GET that but what you also need to understand is that fake water down imitation of hip hop (Jay Z, Drake, Lil Wayne, Whoeever etc) that is being pushed by the music industry is NOT hip hop.

Radio Hip Hip is water down safe rap music to please white people despite the fact that the genre was created off the struggles and injustice of African Americans. It was a voice for African Americans especially the youth but the system now controls it like they do everything else. Soo it is not meant for you or white people to "get it" because you will never get it.


Hip Hop was never intended for the "majority" so I can understand why you do not "get" 2pac but just because you do not get 2pac does not mean he was not a talented lyrical rapper.Why do you think "this so called paradigm shift" exists now? They do not want the minority to have a voice because that makes the majority "uncomfortable". He was a threat.


BIG has one of the greatest flows in the genre BUT I would say 2pac rivals him there as well. I would even argue that 2pac expressed more emotion, passion and personality when he rapped.



That does not necessarily make him more talented.


Biggie had fun catchy songs. I have never denied that but he is not lyrically more talented that 2pac and 2pac had fun dance songs to.



The comparison I made was only between Biggie and Tupac. I never said that Tupac was the greatest rapper of all time BUT between Biggie he is far superior (talent wise).

Besides Nas and Rakim, I would not put those other MC's as among the greats. I like Andre 3000 but I would not say he is one of the "greats" maybe as apart of "Outkast" but even still I would not rank them in Top 10.


Let's do it!

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Do you not believe that hip-hop is real unless it's about the plight of the black man and his struggles?
Are the beastie boys, eminem, El-P and Aesop Rock all fake because they're white and hip-hop isn't for them?
If Chief Keef started addressing the issues of racial inequality in modern America and became a youth activist, is he a real rapper?

Soulflower

Hip Hop is not JUST based on the struggles of black men specifically but it was created on the struggles of African Americans and was specifically used as an outlet for the black youth.


The hip hop on the radio is designed to make white people comfortable which is why ya'll like it. They did not like 2pac and what he was trying to do.

Paul Smeenus

Knock it off

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Rjinn

Right. One of the most famous gangsta rappers in the world who was constantly on the radio and splashed all over music video programs was done so because they didn't like him.

C'mon.

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Soulflower

Mankycaant response perfectly summarizes why I made that statement.

I never said that I was the arbiter of musical taste. This has NOTHING to do with musical taste. This is about a misinformed understanding of the history of a genre.