A question to vegetarians

djchameleon · 06-16-2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

That was my whole point. You say we're at the top of the food web. I point out that it's circumstancial. Generally speaking, yes. Bleeding in a pool with piranhas, no.

okay I got it.

chipper · 06-16-2011, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

thanks. i didn't know he was mentioning about factory farming.
he only said farming in his post which, at first, i thought was a reference to agriculture farming. now i get it. apologies.

He did. he mentioned meat. it was clear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

i understand your point tore, i really do. but think of it this way, let's assume yes, humans are not superior to animals. sure, they can have equal rank as with us. along with that, imagine if they'd get that right not to be killed cause of course, if you can't kill a human, certainly not to animals. what will we be eating then?

i can't imagine my life eating cucumber sandwhich or carrot soup every day. God knows we humans need to eat meat. He knows humans deserve somthing better than plain coleslaw for lunch.

But i do understand what you're trying to say. it's just not enough for us to justify that the meat-eaters are any more cruel because of their way of eating than the vegetarians.

I suggest you read up first on nutritional needs of human beings. you can get the nutrition you get from meat from other sources. for example, you can get protein from peanuts, calcium from soy. etc.

also when you present your argument, you have to be clear. when you say "need to eat meat", is that need based on nutrition? because "need" denotes and connotes necessity for survival. you don't need meat to survive. you can survive without it. BUT if you are using the word "need" loosely, then be clear about it so other people here would understand you clearly.

another point, when you say "God knows...", it would be helpful to present a substantiation like what others do here. there are different beliefs or non-beliefs about God.

if you want to eat meat, that's your deal and we respect. i think that's clear in many of the posts here.

what we are just trying to make you understand is that just because you don't like vegetarianism, it doesn't make it wrong or inferior. the same way we don't think eating meat is wrong or inferior.

and don't regard vegetables or fruits as worse than meat because they are not. the same way meat is not worse than vegetables. it all boils down to preference and priorities. i mentioned this because you said "He knows humans deserve somthing better than plain coleslaw for lunch". some people here might actually prefer plain coleslaw.

just try and be clear. substantiate your argurments. read up on the subject.

my mother is from Cebu. i visited only once but i am proud of our heritage. and according to your data, that's where you are from too. that's why i made an effort to write this lengthy post.

so i hope you don't take this the wrong way. i'm just concerned.

Howard the Duck · 06-17-2011, 12:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

i got you but logically speaking, aliens is a bad comparison for the current discussion. you should be using a metaphor that's more realistic. but i do get your point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

It doesn't matter whether or not it's realistic. I'm illustrating the point that your claiming that humans have the right to kill and eat animals because we are "superior" (whatever that means) is bull**** and merely arrogant self interest. If you really believed it, you would not at all be alarmed if aliens invaded. You'd just say, "Oh, ****! We've gotta do some-oh wait, nevermind. They're superior to us. Carry on then."

i think the word he is struggling for is "more evolved"

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Virgin

i understand your point tore, i really do. but think of it this way, let's assume yes, humans are not superior to animals. sure, they can have equal rank as with us. along with that, imagine if they'd get that right not to be killed cause of course, if you can't kill a human, certainly not to animals. what will we be eating then?

i can't imagine my life eating cucumber sandwhich or carrot soup every day. God knows we humans need to eat meat. He knows humans deserve somthing better than plain coleslaw for lunch.

But i do understand what you're trying to say. it's just not enough for us to justify that the meat-eaters are any more cruel because of their way of eating than the vegetarians.

i'm lost, dazed and confused - reminds me of an argument i had on facebook -some girl was talking about cruelty to animals (a dog) so i asked her "are you a vegetarian then?" then there was this whole thing about cows being "inferior" to dogs

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord

Look. If you're going to use God to justify your argument, you've got to prove that he exists first. You can't use an unproven statement to prove another unproven statement.

he was talking about aliens being far-fetched earlier

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mykonos

the secret is safe with me whether i really did have relations with sheep - just to keep you quesing

Quote:

Originally Posted by tore

Well, if you tried to live in a river where there were large wild salt water crocodiles, I'm sure their interest in you would be consistent

i really dunno, tore - i've read somewhere that most animals that do eat humans don't really like our taste, like if you were attacked by a man-eating shark, it's probably because it mistook you for a seal

they're just hungry, they don't have a choice, we do

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipper

I suggest you read up first on nutritional needs of human beings. you can get the nutrition you get from meat from other sources. for example, you can get protein from peanuts, calcium from soy. etc.

also when you present your argument, you have to be clear. when you say "need to eat meat", is that need based on nutrition? because "need" denotes and connotes necessity for survival. you don't need meat to survive. you can survive without it. BUT if you are using the word "need" loosely, then be clear about it so other people here would understand you clearly.

another point, when you say "God knows...", it would be helpful to present a substantiation like what others do here. there are different beliefs or non-beliefs about God.

if you want to eat meat, that's your deal and we respect. i think that's clear in many of the posts here.

what we are just trying to make you understand is that just because you don't like vegetarianism, it doesn't make it wrong or inferior. the same way we don't think eating meat is wrong or inferior.

and don't regard vegetables or fruits as worse than meat because they are not. the same way meat is not worse than vegetables. it all boils down to preference and priorities. i mentioned this because you said "He knows humans deserve somthing better than plain coleslaw for lunch". some people here might actually prefer plain coleslaw.

just try and be clear. substantiate your argurments. read up on the subject.

my mother is from Cebu. i visited only once but i am proud of our heritage. and according to your data, that's where you are from too. that's why i made an effort to write this lengthy post.

so i hope you don't take this the wrong way. i'm just concerned.

what he/she said

edit:- the God that the Virgin mentioned about giving meat exclusively for consumption to us is along the lines of a Universal God, which is untrue, and he didn't even interpret the Bible correctly

firstly, there are no passages in the Bible stating that animals are exclusive for consumption to us, there are only passages saying there's no restriction on what you can eat. and I read this along the lines of a reaction to Judaisitic law on "no pork", similar to "yes you can work on a Sabbath day" was a reaction to "do nothing on the Sabbath"

secondly, there is no Universal God for all the peoples of the world, whereas Christians are allowed to eat ALL meat, Jews and Muslims can't eat pork (using his line of argument, is a pig a sacred animal, then?, and above us) no - the pig is just a filthy animal to them and cannot be eaten

thirdly, popular non-Abrahamic religions in the East like Hinduism and Buddhism, regard the consumption of only veggies highly thought of and will reward the practitioner in the Karmic cycle, "pure" Buddhists don't even kill ants and the highest caste of Hindus, the Brahmas (priests) are vegetarians - so I guess the Virgin is saying a Christian God is above Buddha, Vishnu, Ganesh etc?

djchameleon · 06-17-2011, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

so I guess the Virgin is saying a Christian God is above Buddha, Vishnu, Ganesh etc?

I don't mean to get into a religious back and forth but according to Christianity those other Gods are just false idols and yes they think that they are above the Gods from those other religion.

Howard the Duck · 06-17-2011, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

I don't mean to get into a religious back and forth but according to Christianity those other Gods are just false idols and yes they think that they are above the Gods from those other religion.

well, that's according to the Bible

i mean according to the general populace of the Earth?

and my main point is that Thee Virgin can eat meat if he likes it, he doesn't need to get so defensive about it - no one here's saying "meat is murder" but using religious, moral or scientific justifications for doing so is not a proper line of reasoning

some like the taste of meat, some don't

djchameleon · 06-17-2011, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

and my main point is that Thee Virgin can eat meat if he likes it, he doesn't need to get so defensive about it - no one here's saying "meat is murder" but using religious, moral or scientific justifications for doing so is not a proper line of reasoning

some like the taste of meat, some don't

True.

The thing about Vegetarian diet is that they will usually have a lower intake of Vitamin B and Calcium but that's more on the Vegan side of things from not consuming dairy products.

chipper · 06-17-2011, 02:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

what he/she said

edit:- the God that the Virgin mentioned about giving meat exclusively for consumption to us is along the lines of a Universal God, which is untrue, and he didn't even interpret the Bible correctly

firstly, there are no passages in the Bible stating that animals are exclusive for consumption to us, there are only passages saying there's no restriction on what you can eat. and I read this along the lines of a reaction to Judaisitic law on "no pork", similar to "yes you can work on a Sabbath day" was a reaction to "do nothing on the Sabbath"

secondly, there is no Universal God for all the peoples of the world, whereas Christians are allowed to eat ALL meat, Jews and Muslims can't eat pork (using his line of argument, is a pig a sacred animal, then?, and above us) no - the pig is just a filthy animal to them and cannot be eaten

thirdly, popular non-Abrahamic religions in the East like Hinduism and Buddhism, regard the consumption of only veggies highly thought of and will reward the practitioner in the Karmic cycle, "pure" Buddhists don't even kill ants and the highest caste of Hindus, the Brahmas (priests) are vegetarians - so I guess the Virgin is saying a Christian God is above Buddha, Vishnu, Ganesh etc?

1. exactly my point. he didn't mention what part of the bible he was referencing. we dont even know if that is the Catholic bible or the Baptist bible, or whatever. we all know there are difference. that's why his arguments keep on heading South. how can we even... properly respond points with no basis? he makes claims and when someone questions it, he makes another one that is just as baseless as the previous one. he keeps on mentioning God wanting this and that for us. apparently, he is the only one who knows it. who knows? he just might have a basis and we could all learn from him. but for as long as he argues with now basis, he is just going to... continue doing what he is doing to himself. whatever that is.

2. ditto

3. that is probably what his belief is. but i am not even sure what God he is talking about. i was raised to four different religions and one of that is Catholicism. i would be the first one to say that Catholics have some... interesting beliefs about God but that God he was talking about, ain't the God of Catholics.

chipper · 06-17-2011, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

True.

The thing about Vegetarian diet is that they will usually have a lower intake of Vitamin B and Calcium but that's more on the Vegan side of things from not consuming dairy products.

agree...

though soy is a good source of calcium
whole grains, potatoes, bananas, lentils, chili peppers, tempeh, beans for Vitamin B

Guybrush · 06-17-2011, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Il Duce

i really dunno, tore - i've read somewhere that most animals that do eat humans don't really like our taste, like if you were attacked by a man-eating shark, it's probably because it mistook you for a seal

It's not because they don't like our taste. It's because they have a history with humans in which humans mean danger and so there's been a natural selection favouring animals that are scared of humans and keep out of their way.

There are still animals that would eat humans given the chance. In a post to DJCham, I mentioned the Sundarbans.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Sundarbans are home to approximately 600 Royal Bengal Tigers that are well-known for the substantial number of people they kill; estimates range from 50-250 people per year.

Cold blooded animals are less shy. Large crocodilians, komodo dragons and piranhas are animals that I don't think would mind a bit of human meat in their diet.

Howard the Duck · 06-17-2011, 03:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chipper

1. exactly my point. he didn't mention what part of the bible he was referencing. we dont even know if that is the Catholic bible or the Baptist bible, or whatever. we all know there are difference. that's why his arguments keep on heading South. how can we even... properly respond points with no basis? he makes claims and when someone questions it, he makes another one that is just as baseless as the previous one. he keeps on mentioning God wanting this and that for us. apparently, he is the only one who knows it. who knows? he just might have a basis and we could all learn from him. but for as long as he argues with now basis, he is just going to... continue doing what he is doing to himself. whatever that is.

i have studied both the Catholic and Protestant bibles, there's nothing in the Apocrypha (sorry, we Protestants call it that) also even suggesting God made animals exclusively for human consumption