Is Meat Really Murder?

Mojo · 05-11-2010, 09:02 AM

A bit like that Sugar. :-P

Well if the likes of Paloma, Sugar, Vegangelica etc, i.e the more frequent contributers in this thread want it open then it stays for now but any more of this kind of shit and its gone.

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 09:03 AM

I dunno, this thread really interests me.
And there aren't a lot of threads I can relate to like I can with this one.
I don't think it should be closed because of some annoying people.
Erica has the strongest views of all of us, and it doesn't even annoy her.

Mojo · 05-11-2010, 09:13 AM

Well thats why im leaving it. But its a thread that constantly needs modding. If it gets back on topic and stays that way then fine but I can see a mod losing their patience with this one somewhere down the line.

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 09:14 AM

Well that's why you're here. <3

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 09:15 AM

No no no no no!

Please don't close this thread! This is a great thread! It's lots of fun...for me, at least.

Also, AwwSugar and I still haven't had our ovo-lactovegetarian/vegan "fight"....yet.

I agree with AwwSugar that this thread serves a purpose...the sharing of people's real feelings on a contentious topic. I'm not offended by the direction the debates take, especially since I have already experienced quite frequently in non-internet life what we sometimes see here as people's satisfied ignorance, disdain, and a desire to show their feelings by acting out (pretending to want to hurt animals).

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojopinuk

I think it should stay if there are people here actually discussing and are interested in it but if it continues to be derailed by trolling, ignorance, insults and general stupidity then its not worth the hassle. I think it should either stay on topic and produce some intelligent discussion, or at least as intelligent as public forums go, or go the journey.

Since people have very different ethical views and background knowledge about eating animals, I don't expect the conversation to avoid sometimes dealing with questions for which (I think) the answers should be obvious, mojo.

For example, in this thread a vegan said that eating meat isn't "natural" and a meat-eater said "meat is essential." These are (incorrect) viewpoints common to both "camps," and so I think this thread is a good place for people to state what they believe so that others can point out errors or offer alternative viewpoints.

So, please don't close the thread due to people's ignorance! And frankly, "sticks and stones and knives and chains and saws can break animals' bones, but words can never hurt them."

So here's a question for those of you who eat meat: given that meat is not a physiological necessity...and so you are supporting people killing animals unnecessarily...does it make a difference to you whether people kill the animal for fun sport (bullfighting, sport fishing, songbird target practice) vs. for fun food (tasty pizza toppings, mouth-watering burgers, tender fish)?

If you are willing for animals to suffer to allow you to eat them (when you don't need to), shouldn't you also be willing for animals to suffer to provide humans with fun in other ways (say, killing animals to get "revenge" on vegans)? The animal ends up dead either way, so why do people's motivations for killing the animal matter?

I've seen people pick up fish and bury them alive for fun, and no animal *likes* to asphyxiate. Is this any worse or better than fishing with the intent of eating the animal? Livestock animals suffer all the time due to human choices. Is this fundamentally any different than people intentionally causing animals to suffer for fun?

Arya Stark · 05-11-2010, 09:18 AM

That's fine, Erica.
You're stupid because you're a vegan.
I'm going to shove eggs in your face.

Mojo · 05-11-2010, 09:27 AM

I recognise that alot of people like this thread, so im not closing it. Im just pointing out the fact that it needs modding alot and i know alot of mods get fed up with having to action this one. I wouldnt be surprised if it gets closed if it continues down that same road. Most threads requiring so many posts to be deleted and so many idiots warned or accounts deleted would have gone the journey a while ago.

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AwwSugar

That's fine, Erica.
You're stupid because you're a vegan.
I'm going to shove eggs in your face.

You didn't consider my question from the previous post, egg-breath. (Switch "egg" or "dairy" for meat): "Given that meat is not a physiological necessity...and so you are supporting people killing animals unnecessarily...does it make a difference to you whether people kill the animal for fun sport (bullfighting, sport fishing, songbird target practice) vs. for fun food (tasty pizza toppings, mouth-watering burgers, tender fish)?"

Stay on topic please, if you CAN.

GAA! I don't want to fake argue with you, Sugar! (I just can't do it long, can I!

. I was lacto-ovo vegetarian for many years, and I know some of the reasons going vegan can be difficult or a concern. It took me several years to switch to a vegan diet even after I realized that people kill the millions of male chicks who are the brothers of the egg-laying hens. Even after I knew that veal calves are not allowed contact with each other and then are killed, just so I could enjoy ice cream.

But seriously, Sugar, have you considered veganism, and why or why not? Do you look at it in this way: ovo-lacto vegetarianism doesn't directly involve killing the animals at that moment, although, of course, people eventually kill the egg-laying hens and cows?

VEGANGELICA · 05-11-2010, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojopinuk

I recognise that alot of people like this thread, so im not closing it. Im just pointing out the fact that it needs modding alot and i know alot of mods get fed up with having to action this one. I wouldnt be surprised if it gets closed if it continues down that same road. Most threads requiring so many posts to be deleted and so many idiots warned or accounts deleted would have gone the journey a while ago.

Oh! There have been posts deleted from this thread?!? Would I ever love to see those, mojo! Now I'm curious...what did they say?

Laurent Quinn Proper · 05-11-2010, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paloma

None of this makes sense to me, you purposely do it, which is shoving your beliefs in someone else's face, knowing that they have opposing views, yet you say you're not "trying to press them on them" when that's EXACTLY WHAT YOU'RE DOING? Why even bother doing it in the first place if not to illicit a response? Just to make a jackass of yourself?

I guess I am using the word "press" in the wrong context. Because I don't know how I can make this any clearer. I am not telling anyone to respond the way I do (I know it's stupid and ignorant) but it's something I have picked up to purposely piss off people regarding the subject. And it works, judged by all the responses.
When I purposely order a cheeseburger in front of the vegan and continue to talk about how delicious the creature was, I am not encouraging others to do the same. If they do, however, that is their own action.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA

You didn't waste my time at all, Laurent Quinn Proper. The time I spend on MusicBanter is my free time. I always learn something during the process of writing replies here on MB, whether or not people read or respond...though of course it is nicer when people do. I like learning about other people and their views.

I'm not offended that you don't care about facts and others' opinions. You can't make yourself care about something you don't care about. I don't care about everything myself. For example, who the U.S. talk show hosts are isn't important to me.

I am glad, though, to have finally gotten down to the bottom of your reasoning behind defending meat-eating. At first you wrote that "meat is essential." I showed that to be incorrect. Then you changed your statement to "Meat is the best form of protein" (an argument I also blew out of the water). Finally, you stated that you feel "meat is the best and most delicious form of protein for me." I can't argue with that, because it is your opinion and feeling.

Very nice and classy response. I see you are one of the few whom don't let ignorance cloud their judgment and feelings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freebase Dali

If you expect anyone to accept your opinion, then you must be prepared to accept theirs. Otherwise, you're just... how did you say? "Forcing your opinion on others".

I don't understand what you gain out of asserting your opinion without even the slightest regard for how it is received. Sounds to me exactly like what you condemn. Either that, you're you're just wasting energy.

You guys are deriving undertones that do not exist in my post. I am not expecting anyone to accept my opinion. And I am not accepting anyone's either. How would one say this on the internet? "I do it for the lulz"? I don't care about animal rights, and I want to be able to enjoy whatever I please to, without having someone in my face about it. And guess what? If you do (get in my face), I am going to be the biggest ignorant piece-of-**** to you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by duga

If you understand that type of response is ignorant, why do it? You like to come off as an ignorant ****? This is fascinating to me.

Let me ask...why did you even post in here? This is one of the most kept alive threads, and this tells me the people arguing in it are very passionate about their views. From your responses, I can think of no other reason for you posting in here other than you just wanted to piss some people off.

Because I do not care of what a stranger thinks of me? Maybe you should give it a try.
And my first response to the thread was "Meat is murder. But it is essential." I should have probably been less vague on whom it is essential to but hindsight is 20/20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mojopinuk

Sometimes, im just legitimately interested to know why this thread is still going. All its done is attract morons to it hell bent on pissing people off.

I may be the "moron" but you're the idiot that lets the "moron" get under your skin.

05-11-2010, 09:02 AM	#441 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	A bit like that Sugar. :-P Well if the likes of Paloma, Sugar, Vegangelica etc, i.e the more frequent contributers in this thread want it open then it stays for now but any more of this kind of shit and its gone. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust

05-11-2010, 09:13 AM	#443 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	Well thats why im leaving it. But its a thread that constantly needs modding. If it gets back on topic and stays that way then fine but I can see a mod losing their patience with this one somewhere down the line. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust

05-11-2010, 09:27 AM	#447 (permalink)
Mojo Melancholia Eternally Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: England Posts: 5,018	I recognise that alot of people like this thread, so im not closing it. Im just pointing out the fact that it needs modding alot and i know alot of mods get fed up with having to action this one. I wouldnt be surprised if it gets closed if it continues down that same road. Most threads requiring so many posts to be deleted and so many idiots warned or accounts deleted would have gone the journey a while ago. __________________ Last.FM \| Echoes and Dust