I think you're right. At least I see no reason why it shouldn't be fluid, and sexuality certainly isn't completely determined by our genes; there are identical twins with different sexualities. I think people are afraid of admitting that sexuality isn't purely genetic because conservative people could misinterpret that as an argument for conversion therapy etc., which is a very valid concern of course. Also, the difference between being straight and being conditioned to be so is whether or not you're repressing a part of yourself

*Ex, tyvm. And I'm positive, he didn't turn me gay he's just the one that made me commit to being gay lol.

That and it gives straight people consolation to think that it's just a tiny minority of people who are born gay rather than a proportion of the population that can potentially grow or shrink based on societal norms and experiences of people when growing up/coming of age.

Yes but how do you truly know whether you yourself are repressing something.

You don't know til you know

Definitely. That's probably related to the personal homophobia which many people who are theoretically pro-gay don't acknowledge in themselves.

I remember one time I was attending a lecture by a guy talking about studying abroad. He talked about culture differences and was like 'in some countries they believe homosexuality can be spread so no wonder they're homophobic' and one guy in the audience turned to his friend and was like 'yeah then I would be pretty scared of gays too'. Until then I had never realised how afraid people are of becoming gay if they think that's possible

That's the difficulty of course. In hindsight my sexuality and repressive thoughts are very obvious from when I was 10 years old, and deep down I think I knew I was repressing even then. But sometimes you barely can tell, I guess
edit:
well that's a much shorter and better way of explaining it lol

The point I'm driving at with that question is it's easy to in hindsight apply the question of was I always not straight and was just in denial once you come out.

But naturally that same question applies to everyone who is straight. Are they actually straight or have they been conditioned.

And are gays actually exclusively gay or have they turned that into such an identity they have likewise been conditioned.

Basically my point is the only real distinction we make is by self designation. What you are and experience first hand. Anyone can theoretically be repressing something without knowing it.

Of course that's technically true, but at least for me there's a huge difference between how I feel now and how I did when I was closeted. I think subconsciously I knew. So theoretically I agree, but in reality you can often kind of tell
I mean, repression always asserts itself in some way (otherwise it wouldn't be a problem) and if you're not aware of it yourself someone else likely is

I think this is all just a specific version of the general question whether we can ever really know something about ourselves for sure. You can't completely trust your own judgement because you're so biased, and you can't trust other people's because they can't read your mind

Right I'm sure some people can clearly tell.

My point is more about people like me. Wwwp asked me was I actually straight or just repressed. If I was repressed I didn't notice it and don't retroactively notice it now, even with hindsight and having known I was bi since I was 16.

So functionally I see no difference between pre teen me and somebody who is "actually" straight.

oh sure, I agree

Nothing is real, we all make it up as we go along

Sure, similar for me, I came out when I was 24. But in the meantime I went from thinking this is the worst thing that could have happened to me, to "accepting my lot in life" to gradually understanding there is nothing wrong with me so that by the time I was 24 I was ready to tell people because, while I was still quite worried about how they might react, I was no longer ashamed.

I imagine most gay people still go through something similar, especially coming from homophobic environments (like I did) but even more liberal ones.

So I'm thinking the time it took you to come out was obviously necessary, you were growing, even if you don't feel like you did. You weren't ready to do it at 15, and were strong enough at 20.

And sure, things might have been different, you (or I) could have been more self-assured, could have come out swinging at 12 years old ready to take on the world, and some queer people are like that. I could have also been a millionaire etc...

My point is, this is who you are, the time it took is the time it needed to take, hence why I generally don't have much regrets about anything (I guess that's a bit determinist?).

Maybe, I don't know. I think I could and should've come out sooner. Nothing much changed about my sexuality between 15 and 20, I had fully accepted myself and knew that the people around me would do the same (at least after high school). It was just the act of coming out which I kept procrastinating, a bit like an unpleasant task which you postpone until the last minute
How do you mean, social?

I believe that sexuality is determined by genetics and the environment (sociocultural factors).

I knew from a very young age that I was bisexual (even in kindergarten) - I just didn't know what to call it. My sexuality gradually formed to a "heterosexual" expression due to family and cultural expectations and conditioning.

But why would you say it was an unpleasant task if you knew everyone around you would be cool about it? Sounds like you had some reservations. You say "at least after high school" meaning that during high school you didn't think you had a very positive and supporting environment? Is it time lost then if you were trying to save yourself the grief of possible bullying?

Also, coming out is one thing, but it wouldn't prevent you from exploring your sexuality (dating, having sex). I get that you weren't doing that either until after 20? Is that what you mean by time lost? If the above is correct, why wouldn't you be doing that if you were totally fine with everything?

It's just my opinion of course, but it seems to me your closet was like any other, you had some issues to deal with before you could come out of it and live your life fully.

But anyway, if you feel like you missed something, no one can change that. It's not a very long time "to miss". Some people spend most of their lives in the closet so...

In my family there are now only two members that aren't queer in some capacity lol

Well of course there's no such thing as a gay gene. I do think it likely that biology influences the likelyhood that someone will turn out gay though, just in a complex way. I guess that's what ribbons means?
It's more complex than that, I can't explain it well. I wasn't afraid of people knowing I was gay, it was having to tell them, I honestly don't know why that was such a problem except that it just feels unbearably awkward to me to have one of those 'I need to tell you something' moments, whatever it is about. (weirdly enough I don't mind casually oversharing, as you might have noticed :laughing:) There wasn't fear of bullying or homophobia in school either, just the knowledge that I'd be even more of a misfit and the subject of the latest gossip. Why I didn't explore my sexuality is a whole other story featuring a lot of social inhibitions. You're right that that's my main regret though

That's exactly what I meant but poorly articulated. Thanks, Marie. :)

Not poorly articulated at all! Also I relate to what you said about your sexuality when you were in kindergarten: if I had known being gay was a thing back then I'd probably have come out when I was four. I'm actually amazed that some people around me didn't notice even then

Good - I hope that will mean more support for you and your new love. :)

There's quite a strain of hidden homosexual/bisexual history in my family. But it's considered negative and the butt of jokes, which I hate. An oft-told story is of one of my great uncles in Wales committing suicide while wearing a dress. Nothing about the tragedy of his suicide, just telling the story for laughs without a shred of sympathy for my great uncle. It disgusts me.

I was in love with a girl in kindergarten who used to cry every day. I felt very protective of her and we became friends. I definitely had *stirrings* toward her. One day she told her of her longing to have a Barbie doll (I don't think her family had much money), so I actually took one of my sister's old Barbie dolls in a gold lamé dress and gave it to her to stop her from crying (my sister later found out the doll was missing and I had to confess, lol). :laughing:

I'm sorry to hear about your family's attitude towards lgbt things :( That kindergarten story is adorible though, I vividly remember having a toddler crush on a girl with huge bambi eyes. Meanwhile a boy had a crush on me and decided that I was his girlfriend and I just sort of awkwardly acquiesced. I've been part of a toddler love triangle.

Yes, that is very heartless, especially as it sounds like your great-uncle was making a very difficult and brave statement.

Off topic, but you made me think about how we learn family history. When we're young, it's understandable if parents report the bare dramatic bones of a story, like a tabloid newspaper headline. In my case, one story I learned from my mum was: Man dies of heart attack at age 45 after playing squash

I never asked about this guy but was also never told any more than this, even though it was my uncle. Instead, when appropriate, this one fact would be rolled out again - the guy's entire life reduced to one sentence. And over the years, my mum's focus seemed to imply a disapproval that accumulated like this in my head:-
a mistake
a stupid mistake
a stupid mistake to place importance on sport
a stupid mistake to place importance on masculine sporting prowess

RIP my uncle, who I now wish I had asked about properly.

:laughing:
I can't wait to see the romantic comedy movie Marie!

Lol more like romantic tragedy

Tbh genetics + environment determines literally everything lol. That's pretty broad.

I don't doubt some people are actually pretty much born gay or straight I just think there are also plenty of people in the middle who are mostly straight but through experimentation develop sexual proclivities that weren't there before. That's the category I feel I fall into.

I've always been attracted to girls since I was 5 years old and I did gay **** with my friends when I was young but there was nothing sexual about it at all. There was when I messed with girls though. It took me meeting someone who was actually gay but in the closet when I was like 14 to start experimenting sexually with gay **** and actually like it. Then about 2 years of denial before I realized I was bi.

But I think there's a difference between being bi cause you experimented your way into it vs being gay where you only like the same sex. I've heard theories like with hormones in there womb could cause homosexuality and that there's noticable differences between an average gay males brain vs a straight males brain.

But that still doesn't explain bisexuals. And also I've heard the same thing about trans... That trans women have brains that have features which more closely resemble cis women than cis men. But that's literally the game thing I heard about gay guys, yet they aren't trans women. And none of that explains the non binary types...

So I think there are inherited traits that make one more likely to skew gay or straight, trans or cis. But it's not black and white determinism imo. Experiences also shape your perception.

Like how you aren't born liking milfs or bbws or s&m... Your exposure to certain experiences shifts your sexual predilections while at the same time your inherent nature makes you more or less open to said experiences but then so does your social conditioning.

Speaking only for myself here: I have always known I was bisexual, in that I have had romantic/sexual attraction to both sexes throughout my life. I've known and felt it strongly despite the fact that I’ve never engaged in same-sex “experimentation” (I was married to a man for many years, was with him since age 19 and did not have any sex before then, and was monogamous during the marriage). I don’t think one necessarily has to “experiment” to come to the conclusion that that one is bisexual. You can be bisexual and know that you are bisexual without having acted on it. Just as some people can realize they are straight, gay, or lesbian before having sexual relations. I think it’s a very common misconception that most bisexuals are actually heterosexuals who are just experimenting. Granted, there are certainly people for whom bisexual behavior is experimental; but bisexuality is a legitimate sexual orientation for others – and that’s the way it is for me.

Totally understood, and I didn't think so - but thank you, elph =)

:laughing: Well, it goes to show you were always a heartbreaker.

Thanks, Lisna. Yes, I agree that my great-uncle was making a very brave statement. I wish I knew him. I'm sorry to learn of the circumstances of your uncle's death and how such information gets suppressed in families, with negative connotations. As you stated, "the guy's entire life reduced to one sentence." May your uncle rest in peace. He has a wonderful nephew in you.

You're very right about not needing to experiment to know your sexuality; it was the same for me. I experimented the other way: I did make out with a guy while I was closeted but knew I was gay, just out of curiosity. I felt nothing, then it occurred to me that it might have just been the particular guy I didn't like and I needed a larger sample size, so i made out with another one and still felt nothing. It was all very scientific :laughing:, I've never had any sexual experience with guys since

A "larger sample size" LOL. I guarantee you that someone will come along to ask if there was tongue involved in your experiments.

Was there? :laughing::laughing:

There was.
https://media.giphy.com/media/l3vRcb...7zOM/giphy.gif

incidentally I came accross this poem by Elizabeth Bishop, which fits the discussions in this thread pretty well, whether it was intended to be about sexual identity or not (it might have been, Liz was a lez after all)

Thanks for that kind comment, ribbons. I appreciate those last two sentences very much indeed.
__________________________________________________ ____________

I avoid handing out unwanted old-timer's advice on MB, but if I were to say anything, it would include this:
All you young-uns ! Ask about your family history, because one day you will be the custodians of it. Find out from your (grand)parents and draw a family tree. If you don't, that information will just disappear; it will cease to be available. So write it down, even if it's boring to you today. You, or someone else may find it interesting tomorrow.

Good post, Marie! Funny gif, well-chosen poem.

In my case... good riddance.

who or what are you quoting?

And thanks Lisna! Elizabeth Bishop is my latest poetry obsession. I think she appeals to me because her poetry reminds me a bit of mathematics: it's a dense language putting a lot of meaning into small bits of text, sometimes requiring a lot of digging to find it. The funny things is that the method of condensing is opposite: in mathematics it's done by making language efficient and unambiguous, but I guess poetry uses the ambiguity of language to add meaning. Also I'm probably not the first to wonder about this, but maybe the habit of hiding sexual identity and emotions played a role in Elizabeth Bishop's habit of hiding personal feelings in clever imagery. Anyway, that's more fitting for the poetry thread

Your boy Lisna, BattleAxe

ooh I accidentally skipped his wise advice because I thougt it was signature!
In my case there's no need to worry though; my grandfather recently wrote up my family history in a 800 page book with family trees and all. It was a very interesting read actually.

Very good, OH !

Funnily enough I thought of your circumstances as I wrote that advice and wondered how it might apply. Yep, there may be people we don't want to hear from, or would never interview, but maybe it's possible to work round them and find some good guys in our families, by which I mean the alive or the dead.