Liar liar flannel pants on fire

It's one of the best and I've been Stanning it since I was fourteen.

^Gayest post in the thread thus far

Only chuds don't like cartoons.

Cannibalistic Humanoid Underground Dwellers?

someone who’s grossly unattractive.

Still describes jwb.

Describes everyone who isn't an underaged Japanese cartoon character by your standards ya suspect chomo

Bro have you seen the (((noses))) in this anime? It's not a standard weeb show.

I appreciate that, adi. When it's a process of self-discovery I would feel the same, but I can't be positive about my own case like that. I knew when I was 15 and didn't come out until I was 20. I wasn't even growing or figuring things out, I was just locked up inside my own head.
It doesn't bother me much though, I was pretty comfortable inside the closet (probably too much so) and like for you everything turned out fine in the end, that's what's important of course

Honestly I think I was actually "straight" before age 14 or so. Certain experiences turned me bi.

I know that's not the usual way of thinking about it but that's how it feels from my POV.

I don't believe sexuality is static.

Were you straight or were you conditioned to be so?

all sexuality may be conditioned no?

Are you sure your boyfriend didn't turn you gay?

I have no way of knowing the difference

I felt no attraction towards men is all I know

Are people who still consider themselves straight actually straight or are they conditioned to be straight? What's the difference between them and 13 year old me?

I think you're right. At least I see no reason why it shouldn't be fluid, and sexuality certainly isn't completely determined by our genes; there are identical twins with different sexualities. I think people are afraid of admitting that sexuality isn't purely genetic because conservative people could misinterpret that as an argument for conversion therapy etc., which is a very valid concern of course. Also, the difference between being straight and being conditioned to be so is whether or not you're repressing a part of yourself

*Ex, tyvm. And I'm positive, he didn't turn me gay he's just the one that made me commit to being gay lol.

That and it gives straight people consolation to think that it's just a tiny minority of people who are born gay rather than a proportion of the population that can potentially grow or shrink based on societal norms and experiences of people when growing up/coming of age.

Yes but how do you truly know whether you yourself are repressing something.

You don't know til you know

Definitely. That's probably related to the personal homophobia which many people who are theoretically pro-gay don't acknowledge in themselves.

I remember one time I was attending a lecture by a guy talking about studying abroad. He talked about culture differences and was like 'in some countries they believe homosexuality can be spread so no wonder they're homophobic' and one guy in the audience turned to his friend and was like 'yeah then I would be pretty scared of gays too'. Until then I had never realised how afraid people are of becoming gay if they think that's possible

That's the difficulty of course. In hindsight my sexuality and repressive thoughts are very obvious from when I was 10 years old, and deep down I think I knew I was repressing even then. But sometimes you barely can tell, I guess
edit:
well that's a much shorter and better way of explaining it lol

The point I'm driving at with that question is it's easy to in hindsight apply the question of was I always not straight and was just in denial once you come out.

But naturally that same question applies to everyone who is straight. Are they actually straight or have they been conditioned.

And are gays actually exclusively gay or have they turned that into such an identity they have likewise been conditioned.

Basically my point is the only real distinction we make is by self designation. What you are and experience first hand. Anyone can theoretically be repressing something without knowing it.

Of course that's technically true, but at least for me there's a huge difference between how I feel now and how I did when I was closeted. I think subconsciously I knew. So theoretically I agree, but in reality you can often kind of tell
I mean, repression always asserts itself in some way (otherwise it wouldn't be a problem) and if you're not aware of it yourself someone else likely is

I think this is all just a specific version of the general question whether we can ever really know something about ourselves for sure. You can't completely trust your own judgement because you're so biased, and you can't trust other people's because they can't read your mind

Right I'm sure some people can clearly tell.

My point is more about people like me. Wwwp asked me was I actually straight or just repressed. If I was repressed I didn't notice it and don't retroactively notice it now, even with hindsight and having known I was bi since I was 16.

So functionally I see no difference between pre teen me and somebody who is "actually" straight.

oh sure, I agree

Nothing is real, we all make it up as we go along

Sure, similar for me, I came out when I was 24. But in the meantime I went from thinking this is the worst thing that could have happened to me, to "accepting my lot in life" to gradually understanding there is nothing wrong with me so that by the time I was 24 I was ready to tell people because, while I was still quite worried about how they might react, I was no longer ashamed.

I imagine most gay people still go through something similar, especially coming from homophobic environments (like I did) but even more liberal ones.

So I'm thinking the time it took you to come out was obviously necessary, you were growing, even if you don't feel like you did. You weren't ready to do it at 15, and were strong enough at 20.

And sure, things might have been different, you (or I) could have been more self-assured, could have come out swinging at 12 years old ready to take on the world, and some queer people are like that. I could have also been a millionaire etc...

My point is, this is who you are, the time it took is the time it needed to take, hence why I generally don't have much regrets about anything (I guess that's a bit determinist?).

I didn't understand it in this way until maybe the last few years, but like gender, sexuality is likely totally social

which is pretty rad if you ask me

Maybe, I don't know. I think I could and should've come out sooner. Nothing much changed about my sexuality between 15 and 20, I had fully accepted myself and knew that the people around me would do the same (at least after high school). It was just the act of coming out which I kept procrastinating, a bit like an unpleasant task which you postpone until the last minute
How do you mean, social?

I believe that sexuality is determined by genetics and the environment (sociocultural factors).

I knew from a very young age that I was bisexual (even in kindergarten) - I just didn't know what to call it. My sexuality gradually formed to a "heterosexual" expression due to family and cultural expectations and conditioning.

not biological, especially not in how we categorize

a lot of research has been done on this and there is no "gay gene" as far as we know

it seems primitive thinking to expect people to have Gay Brains and Straight Brains

and then how to make sense of shifting sexualities?

(I'm not suggesting anyone chooses these things)

But why would you say it was an unpleasant task if you knew everyone around you would be cool about it? Sounds like you had some reservations. You say "at least after high school" meaning that during high school you didn't think you had a very positive and supporting environment? Is it time lost then if you were trying to save yourself the grief of possible bullying?

Also, coming out is one thing, but it wouldn't prevent you from exploring your sexuality (dating, having sex). I get that you weren't doing that either until after 20? Is that what you mean by time lost? If the above is correct, why wouldn't you be doing that if you were totally fine with everything?

It's just my opinion of course, but it seems to me your closet was like any other, you had some issues to deal with before you could come out of it and live your life fully.

But anyway, if you feel like you missed something, no one can change that. It's not a very long time "to miss". Some people spend most of their lives in the closet so...

In my family there are now only two members that aren't queer in some capacity lol

Well of course there's no such thing as a gay gene. I do think it likely that biology influences the likelyhood that someone will turn out gay though, just in a complex way. I guess that's what ribbons means?
It's more complex than that, I can't explain it well. I wasn't afraid of people knowing I was gay, it was having to tell them, I honestly don't know why that was such a problem except that it just feels unbearably awkward to me to have one of those 'I need to tell you something' moments, whatever it is about. (weirdly enough I don't mind casually oversharing, as you might have noticed :laughing:) There wasn't fear of bullying or homophobia in school either, just the knowledge that I'd be even more of a misfit and the subject of the latest gossip. Why I didn't explore my sexuality is a whole other story featuring a lot of social inhibitions. You're right that that's my main regret though

That's exactly what I meant but poorly articulated. Thanks, Marie. :)

Not poorly articulated at all! Also I relate to what you said about your sexuality when you were in kindergarten: if I had known being gay was a thing back then I'd probably have come out when I was four. I'm actually amazed that some people around me didn't notice even then

Good - I hope that will mean more support for you and your new love. :)

There's quite a strain of hidden homosexual/bisexual history in my family. But it's considered negative and the butt of jokes, which I hate. An oft-told story is of one of my great uncles in Wales committing suicide while wearing a dress. Nothing about the tragedy of his suicide, just telling the story for laughs without a shred of sympathy for my great uncle. It disgusts me.

I was in love with a girl in kindergarten who used to cry every day. I felt very protective of her and we became friends. I definitely had *stirrings* toward her. One day she told her of her longing to have a Barbie doll (I don't think her family had much money), so I actually took one of my sister's old Barbie dolls in a gold lamé dress and gave it to her to stop her from crying (my sister later found out the doll was missing and I had to confess, lol). :laughing:

I'm sorry to hear about your family's attitude towards lgbt things :( That kindergarten story is adorible though, I vividly remember having a toddler crush on a girl with huge bambi eyes. Meanwhile a boy had a crush on me and decided that I was his girlfriend and I just sort of awkwardly acquiesced. I've been part of a toddler love triangle.

possible for sure

I wasn't trying to be contrarian here towards any particular poster =)

also some of that environmental influence is likely(?) prenatal

Yes, that is very heartless, especially as it sounds like your great-uncle was making a very difficult and brave statement.

Off topic, but you made me think about how we learn family history. When we're young, it's understandable if parents report the bare dramatic bones of a story, like a tabloid newspaper headline. In my case, one story I learned from my mum was: Man dies of heart attack at age 45 after playing squash

I never asked about this guy but was also never told any more than this, even though it was my uncle. Instead, when appropriate, this one fact would be rolled out again - the guy's entire life reduced to one sentence. And over the years, my mum's focus seemed to imply a disapproval that accumulated like this in my head:-
a mistake
a stupid mistake
a stupid mistake to place importance on sport
a stupid mistake to place importance on masculine sporting prowess

RIP my uncle, who I now wish I had asked about properly.