John Wilkes Booth

i assume he listened to them just didn't know much about them

but if he didn't then yea fair enough

as for the metal thing... that is the same vibe i get from death grips. they seem like hip hop made for non hip hop listeners

i honestly feel the same way about a lot of white underground hip hop artists.. atmosphere / aesop / sage / el-p / etc... though i'm referring mostly to their material from around 2005-6 back when i was vaguely familiar with them... i can't really comment on anything they've done since then

Frownland

I see it less as trying to appeal to a certain demographic and more as people trying new things and catching on. I wouldn't point at the shift from ragtime to bebop as a way to make the Jazz of the time more suitable for whichever demographic. It's just the evolution and diversification of the genre, for better (like free jazz in this example) or worse (like smooth jazz).

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

no but certainly those genres to appeal to specific demographics more than others. i guess i wasn't trying to focus on intent insomuch as to the results obtained.

and with the artists i mentioned i think background comes into play... these are artists that aren't from a background that was historically dominant in hip hop. and musically and culturally they have different influences than you might expect from a typical hip hop artist. so as a result the music appeals to a different sort of demographic. i mean i think i remember atmosphere or one of those artists saying that fugazi were one of their biggest influences.. and i know many of these artists have performed at venues like the warped tour etc which is typically more of a punk venue.

as for experimenting.. i'm all for it. but the thing about experiments is that the results can vary. for example free jazz.. i honestly can't see how people can really listen to some of that ****. honestly it sounds like an assault on my ear drums more than actual music. i'm a huge coltrane fan and i feel like his best work was when he started experimenting with different, less restricted forms of jazz and started going in the direction of free jazz.

my favorite work of his is when his music still had some sort of discernible structure yet he was playing around with it. like ole is probably my favorite song of his. my second favorite is dearly beloved which is the closest thing to free jazz i can really listen to... and a love supreme is easily his best album to me... but then in later years his actual free jazz **** is just unlistenable to me. like 16 straight minutes of squealing saxophone with little discernible melody or structure. it's not just boring to me but actually unpleasant to listen to. i feel the same way about what i've heard from ornette coleman and the like.

i honestly admire coltrane more than any musician i've come across for the fact that he seemed to be on a journey to unlock music's true potential.. and that he was so dedicated to that pursuit that he didn't hesitate to drive away the bulk of his fan base. but even still the results of his later efforts are mostly unlistenable white noise to me.

Frownland

Ja, that's definitely true. I was kind of getting the idea you meant it was being made for being geared towards those types of crowds.

Kind of comes into play with Death Grips as well because of Zach Hill's background in the quasi-abrasive experimental math [insert additional five genres here] stuff he was doing before DG.

@the bolded: there's a difference? I'm pretty fond of music that can be used as a weapon.

Experimentation definitely has its negative sides with people doing shitty musical experiments. These usually fall by the wayside in the experimental world though, except for some cases like Scott Walker, Yoko Ono, and Laurie Anderson (hmm, maybe it's just a singer's affliction). Honestly though, I'm a little surprised that you like Sun Ship but not some of Coltrane's other free jazz work. The more big band oriented stuff like Ascension or Om can be rather difficult and dense, but some of his albums like Interstellar Space are more stripped down and have some incredible interplay, even a few hints at structure show up at times.

To be fair, I don't know if I'd call Death Grips experimental since they're not really introducing new ideas, just new takes on newer ideas. They're definitely fresh though, so it's hard to say. Experimental and avant-garde are kind of iffy terms to begin with though.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

that's the way it was worded but in retrospect i can retract that sentiment since i don't actually know what their intent is. actually i'm pretty sure they do want to be appreciated within hip hop.. i can hear rakim's influence for example in early atmosphere stuff. and they have managed to win over some sector of the core hip hop fanbase. but overall i think they are more successful with rock fans, as well as backpacker hip hop fans. there tends to be a lot of crossover between those two demographics though. whether you want to consider that a good thing or a bad thing. i wasn't trying to put a judgement on it, just making a statement.



i'm not trying to say it's not music, really. just that i listen to music for enjoyment. so if listening to it is not enjoyable to me then i have very little interest in it. regardless of how technically proficient or creative it might be. so by "assault on my eardrums" i mean that listening to it is more likely to annoy me or even give me a headache than evoke some sort of emotional response, which is what i look for in music. so i simply opt not to listen to it.

but i'm talking about free jazz in general here, not death grips or any of the hip hop mentioned above.

i don't actually like sun ship... from what i remember i think the first track is alright, dearly beloved is amazing, and the rest of the album ranges from boring to downright annoying/obnoxious.

it could very well be that i just haven't trained my ear to enjoy that kind of music. because i remember the first time i heard jazz music i thought it was pretty terrible, including the coltrane content that i now enjoy.

edit - on a semi-related note... i actually live like 30 mins from coltranes home town atm. there is supposedly some museum there dedicated to him. i want to go but nobody i know irl wants to come with me. i would love to see if i could track down his old church though. that is supposedly where he derived his passion for music from. not sure if it still exists or not

Frownland

I totally get that. I try not to try to impose my taste on people too much (usually I'm just putting my opinion out there or taking the piss or telling Chula why Journey does objectively suck) because I used to be one of those people who thought to themselves "what the **** is this Captain Beefheart ****?"

Ah okay. I do love Dearly Beloved as well (covered it on my most recent album, actually), and it is a bit different from the rest of the album in the way that it kind of lingers, for lack of a better word. It just keeps going while changing enough to make it interesting, if that makes sense. Give it another shot if you're in the mood, the world can always use more Coltrane fans. I could see the Coltrane museum being pretty sweet, the church to a lesser degree.

Interstellar Space might be worth your time, it's a series of duets with Rashied Ali and Coltrane. It's my favourite of his discography but it does touch on some more freeform areas that might turn you off though.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

John Wilkes Booth

i can be pretty forceful with my opinion tbh... but when it comes to music i'm especially forceful when it comes to hip hop.

i feel like i'm ignorant enough when it comes to something like jazz or metal that i don't really care to comment on it usually... i am usually more interested in other people's opinions than my own. i will say i don't care for x like free jazz or death metal but i'm sure there is something there i just don't hear it because i haven't really exposed myself to much of it.

but with hip hop i basically think i know better than most people, lol. mostly cause i've spent the better part of my teenage/adult life listening to it somewhat obsessively.

but at the end of the day of course i know it's just opinion. but with music/art it's more fun to fight over opinions than to agree on facts in my view

i like the way the tension keeps building until it spills over @ 2:00 or so



i also love the meandering piano. reminds me of parts of a love supreme. sounds very spiritual to me which is ultimately the response coltrane intended to evoke with his music



i actually think the church would be more interesting lol

i think the museum has like one of his old pianos or something but i dunno what else is there. it's not a very big place though i don't think

yea i will try to get into his later stuff at some point. i think it will take a bit of effort though. it honestly took a while just to go from being a non-jazz listener to appreciating a love supreme and **** like that

to be perfectly honest i still don't really care a lot of jazz that is held in high regard like kind of blue era miles davis and the early coltrane material etc.

Micco

I think it's their name, it's too hardcore for me. But seriously, I listened to a couple of tracks and can't enjoy them at all. Do they have any cuts not as "hard"? I like to have fun while listening to my music and if they have anything that isn't sounding like metal to me (I know thats a wrong clasification) I'd be glad to enjoy what they have but it all sounds a little to trying to be hard and scary to me. But I'd be glad to be proved wrong.

__________________
Follow me on instagram @HipHopLand, #salute!

Frownland

What did you listen to? Their whole discography is pretty hard hitting so it's probably not for you. This track is one where they step out of that area though.

__________________

Studies show that when a given norm is changed in the face of the unchanging, the remaining contradictions will parallel the truth.

Goofle

Which tracks did you listen to?

__________________