History of Heavy Metal Thread

Certif1ed · 10-08-2009, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

Often seen people say that about Small Faces but I think the potential root bands for metal are almost endless.

Indeed - there is no single root band, as this thread highlights. Especially when you take into consideration the plethora of different ways in which metal has "split" itself up.

It is interesting that certain bands and names appear at the roots more often than others - The Who, for example are probably the most unlikey, given the complete antithesis of the Mod scene with Rockers, as shown particularly in their film Quadrophenia.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Unknown Soldier

The Quiet Riot covers of Slade songs are just about listenable and they were largely responsible for the wave of terrible Glam/Hair metal bands that swept the USA in the 80`s, boy....have they and Slade got a lot to answer for, but the again some good did come of this with the emergence of Guns`n`Roses for example, but more importantly ushered the emergence of Thrash Metal to bring the agression back into metal.

Can't say I find any of Quiet Riot's material "listenable"

However, they are an important link in the chain from Iggy and the Stooges -> Alice Cooper -> New York Dolls -> Kiss -> QR -> "Hair Metal" (and, of course, UK Glam Rock as mentioned above).

Like it or not, the NWoBHM took a lot of cues (mainly visual, fortunately!) from Glam, and in return, Glam stole its heaviest aspects from "proper" metal, so the two kind of fed each other.

I'm not sure how QR "ushered the emergence of Thrash...", but certainly, Randy+Ozzy was as vital an influence as Judas Priest.

almauro · 10-08-2009, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Certif1ed

This changed in 1980, of course, when Budgie changed their style to fit in with the NWoBHM sound, and released the magnificent Power Supply. Sadly, this was too late to qualify them as "early Heavy Metal" - and the heaviest stuff on Power Supply is disctinctly Judas Priest inspired - listen;

I didn't like that version of Budgie at all. They over simplified and completely lost their uniqueness. It's not awful, but it's not Budgie. I have the same opinion of BOC and everything they did after Secret Treaties. BOC's first 3 albums are classics, everything afterward is geared toward great sounding singles, surrounded by filler. What's apparent in both cases is both bands stopped innovating and altered their sound to fit a need. In Budgie's case, it was changing their specifications to become a NWoBHM band, which is like an ape trying to pass as a goat.

Certif1ed · 10-08-2009, 11:42 AM

Familiar story - a band's first 3 albums being great, then everything else not so great because it's simplified and more radio friendly.

The real irony here is that the early NWoBHM bands of any note all started out playing unique and complex music. Even Saxon (eg Frozen Rainbow/Rainbow Theme) and Def Leppard (eg Lady Strange). OK, maybe not so much Def Leppard - but their first album is still noticeably more interesting than anything that followed.

Other bands of that time had such unique signatures that it's a crying shame who generic the whole thing became in just a couple of years. Bands like Holocaust, Raven, Mythra and Venom developed their own sounds and styles - but it was all metal, and all good.

I didn't mind Budgie's newer sound, even though it was an obvious case of bandwagon jumping - but I prefer the follow-up Nightflight to Power Supply. They were great at Reading festival in 1982, and the stuff sat well alongside the newer bands

Unknown Soldier · 10-08-2009, 01:15 PM

[QUOTE=Certif1ed;748882
I'm not sure how QR "ushered the emergence of Thrash...", but certainly, Randy+Ozzy was as vital an influence as Judas Priest.[/QUOTE]

I didn`t mean it from an influential standpoint but rather from the fact that thrash was a reaction to Glam metal, in that it brought back the energy and agression that it once had say from the late 70`s Motorhead era.

Unknown Soldier · 10-08-2009, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almauro

I have the same opinion of BOC and everything they did after Secret Treaties. BOC's first 3 albums are classics, everything afterward is geared toward great sounding singles, surrounded by filler. What's apparent in both cases is both bands stopped innovating and altered their sound to fit a need. In Budgie's case, it was changing their specifications to become a NWoBHM band, which is like an ape trying to pass as a goat.

I like early BOC a lot as well and agree with the above and I think "On Your Feet or On Your Knees" to be one of the great live albums as well.

almauro · 10-08-2009, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Certif1ed

I didn't mind Budgie's newer sound, even though it was an obvious case of bandwagon jumping - but I prefer the follow-up Nightflight to Power Supply. They were great at Reading festival in 1982, and the stuff sat well alongside the newer bands

I love Budgie and I wish they would have been far more successful, but it just didn't work out for them. At least now more people are hearing about them.

Guybrush · 10-09-2009, 04:08 AM

Although my phenology idea didn't get too much attention, I quite liked it and know a simple way to do it if people are serious about this. Right now, the thread is a lot of talk but little hands-on stuff if you know what I mean

What you could do is make a matrix where you record different traits. The easiest way to do it is to keep traits binary, but you could have more values for each trait. What I mean is something like ..

0 is the ancestral state of the trait (usually means the trait is lacking) while 1 is the advanced or evolved form.

I just made a quick example and I see already it contains errors there, but disregard that

As you see, distorted guitar is the one trait they all have in common here, so that must have branched off quite early. In the similarity matrix, you can see King Crimson and Pig Destroyer (f.ex) have 2 traits in common -> the same value in two traits. King Crimson is more similar to Iron Maiden which it shares 3 traits with.

The above similarity matrix isn't very good but if you add more such variables to the mix, then perhaps you could make something of it. You could make a standard set of variables and have people add 1s and 0s for bands they like or think are important to your dataset.

You would have to identify the important traits of course but you've already discussed quite a few here I guess.

edit :

The similarity matrix can easily be represented visually through a variety of means, for example a phylogenetic tree (once you find an "ancestor" who should have primitive traits) which was my original suggestion.

Certif1ed · 10-09-2009, 05:38 AM

I'm not so hot on data organisation - I'm more of a collector who looks for organic threads and bona fide links.

If you're into organising all this kind of stuff then that's great - I'm sure the results would be very interesting and I'd be keen to see it.

I'm not sure how well it would work from a "roots up" perspective, though - it's probably just me, but I think a tree would soon tie itself in knots.

Ultimately, all data is open to interpretation - but I have tried to maintain what I see as a "hands on" approach - or rather "ears on" in this case

Hopefully, each Youtube encrusted post I've made on previous pages, in between the chat, shows positive and strong links - some of it turning up data that could be a bit controversial or unexpected.

The one thing that has (really) surprised me has been the discovery of Dick Dale, of whom I was previously unaware. I was aware of a potential surf rock connection, because many metal histories burble on about it - but none are specific.

I must admit, when I started listening again to The Ventures and Jan and Dean, I was more than a little sceptical - but then I stumbled upon Mr Dale's music, and now I believe!

I've come to the logical conclusion that it's not Surf Music as a genre that these histories mean, but specific individuals in that scene who influenced metal musicians. So far, I've only discovered one, but there must have been others who adopted this tremolo guitar style that is so evident in thrash metal.

Not only that, but he used the Phrygian mode, which gives a distinctive colour to metal and can plainly be heard in the likes of Priest and Slayer.

The other trend that's beginning to stand out is that Metal as we know it, given the accepted "benchmark" bands, stems from the collision of Glam, prog and punk - and anything before that is merely interesting - prototype, if you will.

It'd be good to find some links that disprove that one!

Dr_Rez · 10-09-2009, 09:01 PM

I think trying to find where heavy metal was born is an impossible task. It is like rock in that its such a broad category. To say instrumental sill, tempo and such makes it more metal is certainly a bit fishy. Take the huge genre of Doom metal bands like Om and Sleep, they are know for a slow tempo and not exactly being virtuosos.

Certif1ed · 10-10-2009, 01:24 AM

It's a bit like trying to find the origins of life or the universe - in all likelihood you'll never find "the thing" that started it all, but it's still interesting to explore.

In this case, it's more of an excuse to chat in-depth about metal bands and music with a particular focus.

10-09-2009, 04:08 AM	#57 (permalink)
Guybrush Juicious Maximus III Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Scabb Island Posts: 6,525	Although my phenology idea didn't get too much attention, I quite liked it and know a simple way to do it if people are serious about this. Right now, the thread is a lot of talk but little hands-on stuff if you know what I mean What you could do is make a matrix where you record different traits. The easiest way to do it is to keep traits binary, but you could have more values for each trait. What I mean is something like .. 0 is the ancestral state of the trait (usually means the trait is lacking) while 1 is the advanced or evolved form. I just made a quick example and I see already it contains errors there, but disregard that As you see, distorted guitar is the one trait they all have in common here, so that must have branched off quite early. In the similarity matrix, you can see King Crimson and Pig Destroyer (f.ex) have 2 traits in common -> the same value in two traits. King Crimson is more similar to Iron Maiden which it shares 3 traits with. The above similarity matrix isn't very good but if you add more such variables to the mix, then perhaps you could make something of it. You could make a standard set of variables and have people add 1s and 0s for bands they like or think are important to your dataset. You would have to identify the important traits of course but you've already discussed quite a few here I guess. edit : The similarity matrix can easily be represented visually through a variety of means, for example a phylogenetic tree (once you find an "ancestor" who should have primitive traits) which was my original suggestion. __________________ Something Completely Different

10-09-2009, 09:01 PM	#59 (permalink)
Dr_Rez Registered Jimmy Rustler Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: USA Posts: 5,361	I think trying to find where heavy metal was born is an impossible task. It is like rock in that its such a broad category. To say instrumental sill, tempo and such makes it more metal is certainly a bit fishy. Take the huge genre of Doom metal bands like Om and Sleep, they are know for a slow tempo and not exactly being virtuosos. __________________ Best chance of losing virginity is in prison crew Always Checks Credentials Crew nba > nfl crew Shave one of my legs to pretend its a girl in my bed crew

10-08-2009, 11:42 AM	#53 (permalink)
Certif1ed Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 194	Familiar story - a band's first 3 albums being great, then everything else not so great because it's simplified and more radio friendly. The real irony here is that the early NWoBHM bands of any note all started out playing unique and complex music. Even Saxon (eg Frozen Rainbow/Rainbow Theme) and Def Leppard (eg Lady Strange). OK, maybe not so much Def Leppard - but their first album is still noticeably more interesting than anything that followed. Other bands of that time had such unique signatures that it's a crying shame who generic the whole thing became in just a couple of years. Bands like Holocaust, Raven, Mythra and Venom developed their own sounds and styles - but it was all metal, and all good. I didn't mind Budgie's newer sound, even though it was an obvious case of bandwagon jumping - but I prefer the follow-up Nightflight to Power Supply. They were great at Reading festival in 1982, and the stuff sat well alongside the newer bands

10-08-2009, 01:15 PM	#54 (permalink)
Unknown Soldier Horribly Creative Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: London, The Big Smoke Posts: 8,265	[QUOTE=Certif1ed;748882 I'm not sure how QR "ushered the emergence of Thrash...", but certainly, Randy+Ozzy was as vital an influence as Judas Priest.[/QUOTE] I didn`t mean it from an influential standpoint but rather from the fact that thrash was a reaction to Glam metal, in that it brought back the energy and agression that it once had say from the late 70`s Motorhead era.

10-09-2009, 05:38 AM	#58 (permalink)
Certif1ed Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 194	I'm not so hot on data organisation - I'm more of a collector who looks for organic threads and bona fide links. If you're into organising all this kind of stuff then that's great - I'm sure the results would be very interesting and I'd be keen to see it. I'm not sure how well it would work from a "roots up" perspective, though - it's probably just me, but I think a tree would soon tie itself in knots. Ultimately, all data is open to interpretation - but I have tried to maintain what I see as a "hands on" approach - or rather "ears on" in this case Hopefully, each Youtube encrusted post I've made on previous pages, in between the chat, shows positive and strong links - some of it turning up data that could be a bit controversial or unexpected. The one thing that has (really) surprised me has been the discovery of Dick Dale, of whom I was previously unaware. I was aware of a potential surf rock connection, because many metal histories burble on about it - but none are specific. I must admit, when I started listening again to The Ventures and Jan and Dean, I was more than a little sceptical - but then I stumbled upon Mr Dale's music, and now I believe! I've come to the logical conclusion that it's not Surf Music as a genre that these histories mean, but specific individuals in that scene who influenced metal musicians. So far, I've only discovered one, but there must have been others who adopted this tremolo guitar style that is so evident in thrash metal. Not only that, but he used the Phrygian mode, which gives a distinctive colour to metal and can plainly be heard in the likes of Priest and Slayer. The other trend that's beginning to stand out is that Metal as we know it, given the accepted "benchmark" bands, stems from the collision of Glam, prog and punk - and anything before that is merely interesting - prototype, if you will. It'd be good to find some links that disprove that one!

10-10-2009, 01:24 AM	#60 (permalink)
Certif1ed Music Addict Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 194	It's a bit like trying to find the origins of life or the universe - in all likelihood you'll never find "the thing" that started it all, but it's still interesting to explore. In this case, it's more of an excuse to chat in-depth about metal bands and music with a particular focus.