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Old 09-26-2009, 09:58 AM   #141 (permalink)
young gun funyun
 
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Quote:
Being afraid of fire is instinctive so we shouldn't need to teach kids not to play with it. That is why I find fire safety ads to be a hilarious waste of money.
xD I dunno, I used to know a couple o' boyscouts who would take hairspray to campouts for that reason. Being afraid of fire is instinctive, but being attracted to it is also true.

Either way, I just recently went to one of those college BBQ places and ordered loaded fries. It's basically pulled pork, with melted cheese and (amazing) BBQ sauce on fries. So, so, so good. I don't know how you could say that eating meat is evil VEGANGELICA.

keep writing though, I don't want my foray into the BBQ world to discourage you.

peace,
-nick
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It only takes one jerk to prove any hypothesis absolutely false. Like, have you ever heard the rumor that you can drop cash on the street in Tokyo and the people are so honest that someone will find it, pick it up, and take it to the cops? Well, that's absolutely 100% not true, because I once found a plain envelope on the ground with "6,000 yen" written on it. Inside was 6,000 yen. I put it in my pocket and kept walking.
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Old 09-26-2009, 01:35 PM   #142 (permalink)
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My opinion:

The topic isn't even debatable. If Vegangelica chooses not to eat meat and Unfan chooses to eat meat then both are happy and believe that what they are doing is correct. No amount of activism on either part is going to change anything at all. It's like pissing in a river, you could argue back and forth about why it's gross or why it isn't but in the long run that won't change the fact that people piss in rivers all the time.
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Old 09-26-2009, 02:37 PM   #143 (permalink)
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i pissed in the pool. haha. warm isnt it?
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Old 09-26-2009, 09:13 PM   #144 (permalink)
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Ah, Erica. You're such a sweetheart. I love you.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:21 PM   #145 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Unfan View Post
Meat is healthy for consumption and our bodies have evolved to digest it. If people love animals that is fine. I have no issue with those sentiments. I have 3 cats which I love, although I don't view them as my children. I do know that they have emotional needs, like humans, but at the same time I value my life over theirs. So yes, I agree someone can love other animals for the most part I value human lives more.

This doesn't really hold sway one way or the other. This could just as easily be claimed as evidence that early man needed to eat meat to survive, and had to try various kinds based on conditioning.

I assume this is more a regional thing anyway. I don't eat certain animals because it isn't customary for one reason or another. For example, if a Korean buffet served real Korean dog meat I'd give it a try. If I were in Japan I'd eat kalamari. However, I assume that both of these animals have nutritional value.

The quote given doesn't discredit my claim that we eat animals for survival, it just notes that we also find animals tasty. The nutritional value of meat can't be denied.

Hey Unfan,

I agree with you that meat has nutritional value and that many people find it tasty. For people who are malnourished and do not have access to synthetic vitamin B-12 or fruits and vegetables, a small quantity of eggs, millk, or meat can help them avoid micronutrient deficiency.

In my previous post I was trying to point out that the ethical question is this: given that people *can* eat all types of animals (including humans)...and have throughout history...how does a particular person decide what or whom s/he feels is ethical to eat? Is it mean to eat someone when we don't have to? Is it unfair to eat someone just because that individual is less intelligent than me? Given that an individual animal's life matters to her or him, to what degree is it unethical to end her or his life to satisfy a taste?

Thanks for pointing out where you agree and disagree with what I said...such as when you note that you have no problem with people loving animals. The first non-human I loved was a cat and I had a very strong sense of responsibility toward her as well as love. Now that I've experienced what it is like to have a child, I do feel that my feelings toward the cat whom I cared for and grew up with were similar although not as strong. Next post I'll share a poem I wrote about her long ago. I still think about her 20 years after she died.

Yes, I agree with you that gathering plant foods and hunting animals were both important parts of human diets during human evolution, and biologically we are able to be omnivores. From studies I've read, diets heavy in meats, especially red meats, are not healthful due to the harm caused by excessive cholesterol, saturated fats, iron, and protein in the diet...also cooking meats at high temps creates carcinogens. Several studies link red meat consumption with estrogen-sensitive breast cancer, although it is not clear if this is due to hormones given to cattle in the 70s or due to some of the nutritional downsides of meat consumption. However, well-planned omnivorous and well-planned vegan diets are both healthful.

You wrote:
Quote:
So yes, I agree someone can love other animals. for the most part I value human lives more.
I am intrigued by your "for the most part"...because if I'm interpreting that correctly you are saying that there are some humans whose lives you value less than some non-human animals. This is interesting to me...what qualities does a person have that would make you value that person less than a non-human animal's life?

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Originally Posted by Nicktarist View Post
Either way, I just recently went to one of those college BBQ places and ordered loaded fries. It's basically pulled pork, with melted cheese and (amazing) BBQ sauce on fries. So, so, so good. I don't know how you could say that eating meat is evil VEGANGELICA.
peace,
-nick
Hi nick,
I agree that teaching kids fire safety is important because one thing about humans is that we can be dare-devils and do silly, self-destructive actions! Hmm...I don't recall saying eating meat is "evil"--but I am arguing that it is mean to kill and eat an animal who presumably enjoys living/feeling etc.. I actually don't believe in "evil"...that is, I don't think the universe is stamped somehow with a list of actions that are "good" vs. "evil." I feel these ethics questions are open to debate.

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Originally Posted by Conan View Post
My opinion:

The topic isn't even debatable. If Vegangelica chooses not to eat meat and Unfan chooses to eat meat then both are happy and believe that what they are doing is correct. No amount of activism on either part is going to change anything at all. It's like pissing in a river, you could argue back and forth about why it's gross or why it isn't but in the long run that won't change the fact that people piss in rivers all the time.
Hello Conan,
I've been meaning to get to the lyrics in your song...but I'll post this first! I disagree that dietary choices are not debatable. Often the only way anyone changes her or his mind about anything is by learning about more information (facts) and perspectives. I like debating because I like learning. Within nutrition science circles, debates currently rage (if scientists can rage) about how to combat malnutrition, and one of the topics under debate is what role animal source foods should play. Plus, if you haven't heard it yet, you will: the typical American animal-based diet is being critiqued and criticized because it is not only unhealthful but also a very energy-intensive and environmentally damaging diet and for environmental reasons people are encouraged to reduce their consumption of animal products.

Also, debating is a good way to learn how someone else thinks about something. It helps me learn where are thoughts are similar and where they diverge so that I can better understand how we come to a different conclusion.

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Originally Posted by wad View Post
i pissed in the pool. haha. warm isnt it?
I remember going to the bathroom in the pool as a child and quickly swimming away from the warm spot, feeling guilty and hoping the chlorine was working! Now I don't much like to go in swimming pools because I know what people are up to under that yellow-blue water!

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Ah, Erica. You're such a sweetheart. I love you.
Back atcha, Sugar!
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Originally Posted by Neapolitan:
If a chicken was smart enough to be able to speak English and run in a geometric pattern, then I think it should be smart enough to dial 911 (999) before getting the axe, and scream to the operator, "Something must be done! Something must be done!"

Last edited by VEGANGELICA; 09-27-2009 at 08:51 PM.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:24 PM   #146 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA View Post
[B]

Hello Conan,
I've been meaning to get to the lyrics in your song...but I'll post this first! I disagree that dietary choices are not debatable. Often the only way anyone changes her or his mind about anything is by learning about more information (facts) and perspectives. I like debating because I like learning. Also, within nutrition science circles, debates currently rage (if scientists can rage) about how to combat malnutrition, and one of the topics under debate is what role animal source foods should play. Plus, if you haven't heard it yet, you will: the typical American animal-based diet is being critiqued and criticized because it is a very energy-intensive and environmentally damaging diet and for environmental reasons people are encouraged to reduce their consumption of animal products.
I didn't mean to be insulting, was kind of a thoughtless post anyway.
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Old 09-27-2009, 08:52 PM   #147 (permalink)
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I didn't mean to be insulting, was kind of a thoughtless post anyway.
Oh, I wasn't insulted at all! I'm sorry if my post sounded like that, because that wasn't how I was feeling. I was just trying to describe reasons I like debates. No insult was taken!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neapolitan:
If a chicken was smart enough to be able to speak English and run in a geometric pattern, then I think it should be smart enough to dial 911 (999) before getting the axe, and scream to the operator, "Something must be done! Something must be done!"
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Old 09-27-2009, 09:41 PM   #148 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by VEGANGELICA View Post

Hey Unfan,

I agree with you that meat has nutritional value and that many people find it tasty. For people who are malnourished and do not have access to synthetic vitamin B-12 or fruits and vegetables, a small quantity of eggs, millk, or meat can help them avoid micronutrient deficiency.
Too much of anything is bad for you.

Quote:
In my previous post I was trying to point out that the ethical question is this: given that people *can* eat all types of animals (including humans)...and have throughout history...how does a particular person decide what or whom s/he feels is ethical to eat? Is it mean to eat someone when we don't have to? Is it unfair to eat someone just because that individual is less intelligent than me? Given that an individual animal's life matters to her or him, to what degree is it unethical to end her or his life to satisfy a taste?


Quote:
Yes, I agree with you that gathering plant foods and hunting animals were both important parts of human diets during human evolution, and biologically we are able to be omnivores. From studies I've read, diets heavy in meats, especially red meats, are not healthful due to the harm caused by excessive cholesterol, saturated fats, iron, and protein in the diet...also cooking meats at high temps creates carcinogens. Several studies link red meat consumption with estrogen-sensitive breast cancer, although it is not clear if this is due to hormones given to cattle in the 70s or due to some of the nutritional downsides of meat consumption. However, well-planned omnivorous and well-planned vegan diets are both healthful.
Pretty much this, but healthy vegan diets usually include pills. Meats are natural for us to consume, its just knowing how to do so in moderation. As noted above, too much of anything is bad.

Quote:
I am intrigued by your "for the most part"...because if I'm interpreting that correctly you are saying that there are some humans whose lives you value less than some non-human animals. This is interesting to me...what qualities does a person have that would make you value that person less than a non-human animal's life?
Sometimes it is important to preserve eco systems and so you have to value animal life sometimes. Basically, some Captain Planet bull****.
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Old 09-28-2009, 03:42 PM   #149 (permalink)
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I can understand where Vegangelica is coming from. Normally, the biggest issue when we come to the meat industry is factory farming. Conditions can be very extreme for animals in factory farming--not to mention that factory farmed animals are very fatty and have lots of hormones and steroids to help them grow bigger in highly enclosed areas.

The biggest argument I hear towards the treatment of animals in factory farms are the fact that they can't hold a moral contract of any sort(i.e. I won't harm you if you don't harm me). By that logic, it is moral to eat babies or the mentally inept. So, if you can't disern a difference between humans and animals, than that alone could prove factory farms unjust.

Personally, I agree with Unfan, a vegan diet is a highly extreme way to go when it comes to protecting animals. Meat contains protien and iron which our bodies have come to need. If you don't eat meat (especially read meat), you can become anemic. A friend of mine doesn't eat red meat because she's allergic and therefore has to take iron pills in order to make up for her loss in iron.

To be honest, Americans in general could stand to eat less meat (moreso factory farming than standard independent farming). I eat BBQ every few weeks and include some meat in dinner every other day or so. I snack allot (popcorn, fruit, whatever the hell is in the pantry), so I end up not eating much for dinner anyways.

Anyways, I still love meat, and always will. And, if I *had* to give up meat, i would never give up fish. Never.

peace out,
-nick
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It only takes one jerk to prove any hypothesis absolutely false. Like, have you ever heard the rumor that you can drop cash on the street in Tokyo and the people are so honest that someone will find it, pick it up, and take it to the cops? Well, that's absolutely 100% not true, because I once found a plain envelope on the ground with "6,000 yen" written on it. Inside was 6,000 yen. I put it in my pocket and kept walking.
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Old 10-09-2009, 02:10 PM   #150 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Unfan View Post
Pretty much this, but healthy vegan diets usually include pills. Meats are natural for us to consume, its just knowing how to do so in moderation. As noted above, too much of anything is bad.
Hi Unfan,
Healthy vegan diets don't just usually include pills, they *need* to include a vitamin B-12 supplement ($20 provides a lifetime supply!) or make sure to eat fortified breakfast cereals (most have vitamin B-12 added). Although vitamin B-12 naturally occurs among bacteria and we can purify it from them, it is easier to produce larger amounts through organic chemistry.

Your comment about naturalness causes me to want to write a song called "Natural." The question of what is "natural" or not is an interesting one. For example, pig producers generally feed synthetic vitamin B-12 to pigs (along with other synthetic compounds) and of course people give pigs and other livestock many vaccinations (often produced via genetic modification of organisms)...and so if vitamin B-12 is "unnatural" then one could argue that eating meat today is unnatural, too.

In my opinion, all that happens on earth is "natural"...and we humans naturally use tools, including those that help us synethesize various compounds for consumption. Most cheese now is made using an enzyme that is produced via genetic engineering. To me the question of whether or not to consume some food becomes not whether that food is "natural" or not, but whether there are good enough reasons to use or avoid that food.

Unfan, thanks for visiting my thread during the last months. I enjoyed and looked forward to your comments. I will post a "cat" poem in the next post, which I wanted to do since I know you like cats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicktarist View Post
Meat contains protien and iron which our bodies have come to need. If you don't eat meat (especially read meat), you can become anemic. A friend of mine doesn't eat red meat because she's allergic and therefore has to take iron pills in order to make up for her loss in iron.

peace out,
-nick
Hi Nick,
Thanks for your feedback. Your comment about iron and meat makes me think I should try to write a song about nutrition, because I think many people have the feeling that a diet lacking meat is dangerous, fearing it increases the risk of protein deficiency and anemia. Protein needs are easily met by eating beans and grains. And, the incidence of iron-deficiency anemia among vegetarians is actually similar to that of nonvegetarians according to studies (see source at bottom of post). A well-planned diet lacking red meat or all meats can and does provide all the iron a person needs. (Note: eating oranges and other foods high in vitamin C increases the body's absorption of non-heme iron, which is the form of iron found in plants and most iron supplements, and also comprises around 60% of the iron found in flesh).

A great resource for anyone wishing to learn more about vegetarian nutrition issues is the “Position of the American Dietetic Association: Vegetarian Diets” (2009) J. Am. Diet Assoc. Volume 109, Issue 7, Pages 1266-1282.
http://www.eatright.org/ada/files/Ve...itionFINAL.pdf

Not eating red meat is actually a very healthful step for your friend to take. The following article should be interesting to her, because it reiterates information that many in the nutrition world have known for years, but that I fear the general public is not aware of:

Quote:
Rob Stein, “Daily Red Meat Raises Chances of Dying Early,” The Washington Post, Tuesday, March 24, 2009, page A01.
Daily Red Meat Raises Chances Of Dying Early - washingtonpost.com

The study of more than 500,000 middle-aged and elderly Americans found that those who consumed about four ounces of red meat a day (the equivalent of about a small hamburger) were more than 30 percent more likely to die during the 10 years they were followed, mostly from heart disease and cancer. Sausage, cold cuts and other processed meats also increased the risk.
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Originally Posted by Neapolitan:
If a chicken was smart enough to be able to speak English and run in a geometric pattern, then I think it should be smart enough to dial 911 (999) before getting the axe, and scream to the operator, "Something must be done! Something must be done!"
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