Great Debate: Are eSports sports?

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 07-24-2013, 07:45 PM

well guitar answered kinda what i wanted to know from you chameleon. i know that guys on the playground cant even come close to nba guys obviously. im just asking on your thought on the difference between:

basketball (using this as example cause its somethin i consider a sport)
-playing a pickup game at the playground, is that a sport?
-playin in the nba, is that a sport??

starcraft or whatever other game
-playin with friends at home, is that a sport?
-playin for money, is that a sport??

djchameleon · 07-24-2013, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 216

basketball (using this as example cause its somethin i consider a sport)
-playing a pickup game at the playground, is that a sport? recreation
-playin in the nba, is that a sport?? sport

starcraft or whatever other game
-playin with friends at home, is that a sport? recreation
-playin for money, is that a sport?? sport

I bolded my answers.

Newkie · 07-25-2013, 03:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I should have clarified - There's rather more to being a governing body than just being a referee. Specifically it involves being an authority to whom people in the discipline will refer in any and all calls, and that has the power (And the means to enforce that power) to both define, change, and amend the rules of the competition outside of the game itself - IE, the rules of a Cycle race are to get from point to point faster than the other guy - the UCI's job is to ensure that this is being done fairly and also to make judgements and rulings pertaining to the manner in which it is done - in the UCI's case they do things like rule on seat heights, bike weights, etc.

In football, for example, where there IS a governing body to refer to, your casual kickabout with your mates has no rules regarding ball size, weight, player transfer windows, proper enforcement of offside, pitch conditions, sendings off, proper timekeeping, etc. FIFA's job as the governing body of the sport is to ensure that in sporting competition, as opposed to amateur play, all of the above are followed.

It is possible that you could form a footballing offshoot where your kickabout rules would be considered valid at all levels of play, but you'd need to form a body of scope to do the above, or whatever other administrative tasks were necessary to keep play in your chosen discipline consistent across all players and (if applicable or forthcoming) tournament settings.

Alright, so anyone who plays under those circumstances is a sportsman? For instance, in England there are about 500 football divisions, although the top 5 (if that) are the only ones that count. Some lower than that are Semi-Professional, and those at the bottom of the tier are amateurs. But they are playing in the English league system and follow Fifa/F.A rules. So, by definition, are they all athletes/sportsmen?

**Janszoon** · 07-25-2013, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by djchameleon

I bolded my answers.

This first definition Merriam-Webster lists for sport is:

1 a : a source of diversion : recreation

Just sayin'.

GuitarBizarre · 07-25-2013, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Newkie

Alright, so anyone who plays under those circumstances is a sportsman? For instance, in England there are about 500 football divisions, although the top 5 (if that) are the only ones that count. Some lower than that are Semi-Professional, and those at the bottom of the tier are amateurs. But they are playing in the English league system and follow Fifa/F.A rules. So, by definition, are they all athletes/sportsmen?

I would say they can definitely be thought of as such. There is perhaps room for a delineation between "sportsmen" (Workplace teams, skilled amateurs, those seeking competition as an extension of their recreational game) "professional sportsmen" (Those playing for some or all of their living wage, or for a prizepool) and "elite sportsmen" (Those aiming to be champions in their own right) in that group though. The key delineation is that if they're taking the time to play in a league, minor or otherwise, that's a sign of a partial or complete change in attitude from "dicking around to have fun" and "Playing to win". It may not be a complete or even significant switch from one to the other, but there's clearly an element there that the casual game doesn't have.

FRED HALE SR. · 07-25-2013, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

This first definition Merriam-Webster lists for sport is:

1 a : a source of diversion : recreation

Just sayin'.

I would side with E-sports being a sport then at that point. I've kind of done a 180 on this. I've listened to both sides and decided why shouldn't it be a sport. Afterall the Kinect and Move both require as much movement as curling.

GuitarBizarre · 07-25-2013, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FRED HALE SR.

I would side with E-sports being a sport then at that point. I've kind of done a 180 on this. I've listened to both sides and decided why shouldn't it be a sport. Afterall the Kinect and Move both require as much movement as curling.

Can I just say thanks for the bolded part? Realistically I would have been perfectly happy had you still come down on the other side of the debate - though I may have tried to convince you yet.

But I think the most telling part of this is that you've managed to come at this with a mind to consider the other viewpoint, and I think that's been lacking from a lot of the more dismissive or aggressively negative responses to the thread.

I'm perfectly happy to accept the alternate viewpoint here, I'd just like that viewpoint to be presented with a logical thread that answers or attempts to answer the "why" of why whatever people believes defines sport, does so. I think I've tried to remain consistent to that approach so far and I'd like to see the same sort of arguments made, in the absence of tradition but more based on rationale and logic, as to other peoples choice of defining factor, for what a sport is and how defining sport should work on a base level.

Put simply, saying that physicality should define sport is OK and I'm not going to jump down anyone's throat or insult them for thinking so - its just that for me to accept that as a truth, isn't self-evident, and isn't based on simply that it has been so traditionally - I would require a logical basis for not only why this DOES in someones opinion define sport, but why it SHOULD - bearing in mind whether we should seperate out certain things as "sideline" issues like exercise or the social health of the young, which are are not to my mind the end goal of sport - those are the end goals of exercise or socialization, surely?

Having said that I won't jump down peoples throats or insult them for that however, I do find my patience being tested when people's arguments are put forward based on a conviction that eSports - whether defined as proper sport or not - are in some way worthless, or when people seem more concerned with attacking my interests or people who share my interests, rather than trying to debunk or counter my argument. I don't believe we are, or should be, discussing the worth of a sport, only whether it actually is, or is not one.

Newkie · 07-26-2013, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I would say they can definitely be thought of as such. There is perhaps room for a delineation between "sportsmen" (Workplace teams, skilled amateurs, those seeking competition as an extension of their recreational game) "professional sportsmen" (Those playing for some or all of their living wage, or for a prizepool) and "elite sportsmen" (Those aiming to be champions in their own right) in that group though. The key delineation is that if they're taking the time to play in a league, minor or otherwise, that's a sign of a partial or complete change in attitude from "dicking around to have fun" and "Playing to win". It may not be a complete or even significant switch from one to the other, but there's clearly an element there that the casual game doesn't have.

All true but my point was it gets to murky territory. People play on better pitches with mates than they often do in the above "professional" instances. The level of referring/attention to the rules/no obvious bias can also be compared.

I agree in the splitting up of the categories, but in the end it is still all the same sport. Those at the bottom might get sponsors but they certainly won't earn a wage. The desire to win may not be any more than that of a few mates kicking a ball around because that kind of thing is often situational, I'm sure many of the bottom league teams see it as a social gathering-particularly as they will go out and drink after matches, which the "professionals" of course wouldn't. I'm not even sure where to draw the line here, because the situations are so comparable.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

Having said that I won't jump down peoples throats or insult them for that however, I do find my patience being tested when people's arguments are put forward based on a conviction that eSports - whether defined as proper sport or not - are in some way worthless, or when people seem more concerned with attacking my interests or people who share my interests, rather than trying to debunk or counter my argument. I don't believe we are, or should be, discussing the worth of a sport, only whether it actually is, or is not one.

Yeah, I definitely don't agree with that. Tbh I think I would get more enjoyment out of playing an e sport ala starcraft than I would playing plenty of things considered sports and at the end of the day, life is about trying to get the most enjoyment out of your time here. I don't really class things like pool/snooker/darts etc as sports but then if it comes to this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon

This first definition Merriam-Webster lists for sport is:

1 a : a source of diversion : recreation

Just sayin'.

why shouldn't they? And why shouldn't Esports? I think my issue isn't in accepting that Esports are sports, but where to draw the line if it is a sport. If that makes sense?I think others earlier on have felt similarly. I mean if the above definition is true, I tend to think making a cup of tea in the office is both a source of diversion-from work-and it allows recreation-ideally talking to someone I'm not sat in the same room with all the time.

hip hop bunny hop · 07-27-2013, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GuitarBizarre

I'm perfectly happy to accept the alternate viewpoint here, I'd just like that viewpoint to be presented with a logical thread that answers or attempts to answer the "why" of why whatever people believes defines sport, does so. I think I've tried to remain consistent to that approach so far and I'd like to see the same sort of arguments made, in the absence of tradition but more based on rationale and logic, as to other peoples choice of defining factor, for what a sport is and how defining sport should work on a base level..

lawl, you haven't been acting like it bub.

LoathsomePete · 04-27-2015, 12:01 PM

So apparently ESPN2 and Blizzard did a 2 hour Heroes of the Storm special yesterday and you got the typical responses via twitter, although I think this one was the best.

Spoiler for Large picture:

04-27-2015, 12:01 PM	#280 (permalink)
LoathsomePete Cardboard Box Realtor Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Hobb's End Posts: 7,648	So apparently ESPN2 and Blizzard did a 2 hour Heroes of the Storm special yesterday and you got the typical responses via twitter, although I think this one was the best. Spoiler for Large picture: __________________ Last.FM 101 Albums That May Not Change Your Life, But I Really Like And You Might Too

07-24-2013, 07:45 PM	#271 (permalink)
~~butthead aka 216~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: freely swimmin thru the waters of glory much like a majestic bald eagle soars thru the skies Posts: 1,463	well guitar answered kinda what i wanted to know from you chameleon. i know that guys on the playground cant even come close to nba guys obviously. im just asking on your thought on the difference between: basketball (using this as example cause its somethin i consider a sport) -playing a pickup game at the playground, is that a sport? -playin in the nba, is that a sport?? starcraft or whatever other game -playin with friends at home, is that a sport? -playin for money, is that a sport??