Rape - Whose Fault Is It?

Rjinn · 07-07-2013, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CanwllCorfe

It's weird when the clothing comes into question, because from what I've heard on a lot of crime shows and all that stuff, rape almost always seems to be more about dominance and power than about sex. So I'd think it'd be more of a matter of the woman being vulnerable than looking "sexy", per se, but who knows. I certainly don't. I actually think I remember Oprah saying something along those lines when she was talking about her own personal experience. I think she said, "It's not about sex. It's about power." That was the first time I ever heard that before. I always thought they were committed by horny guys that can't control themselves. Of course, I'm sure there are plenty of occasions that are like that, but I'd think if a woman clearly wanted to stop that they'd stop. I'd think there would always have to be some kind of underlying want of dominance, or affinity for sadism.

I find in situations sexual display of clothing can really attract men aggressively. Once there is some sort of rejection, men exercise their power to show sexual dominance. So I agree with what you said. Just thought I'd bring some sort of understanding to the link.

memycelfandeye · 07-07-2013, 01:46 AM

This is a rather disturbing thread to be honest. Any argument about clothing or sobriety have no affect on the fact that the rapist is always the one who willingly makes decisions during the vile acts they commit.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-07-2013, 02:33 AM

The problem here is that people take statements like 'the risk could be minimised by not walking through high crime areas late at night/not being pissed as a fart' or other stuff like that as OMG THAT'S VICTIMBLAMING!!11

I can't be arsed to discuss whether x precaution minimises rape or not* but there is a difference between outright blaming someone for something and stating an opinion as to minimizing risk or whatever and people need to realise this instead of getting so offended.

If you're in a high crime area late at night you're more likely to be a victim of crime. This is a fact. Does it mean you're to blame? No, not really.

*For dress code specifically I don't know if it has any effect at all. People are quick to say rape is about power which is fair enough. I don't think it's as black and white as that though. Several factors can overlap and motivate someone to rape imo, think Jeffrey Dahmer said he would actually pick his victims based on appearance so it's not unreasonable to say some rapists are motivated by attraction (as well as other things).

In the real world, very few people 'blame' the victim.

I typed a long post re: Jeremy Forrest and this country's attitude to nonces and decided I just couldn't be arsed.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 07-07-2013, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pedestrian

Here's something I think could spawn further intense discussion:

When a woman is intoxicated, her word is not to be taken as consent. When a man and a woman are intoxicated, the responsibility falls on the man. Should or shouldn't dual-intoxication cancel actions out? Why or why not?

My internet sucks and multi quote isnt working

anyways, i think it's stupid that a drunk woman's word cant be taken as consent. So is anyone who has ****ed a drunk girl a rapist?? probably like 90% of men are technically rapists in one way or another because of how rape is ldefined. lol i dont get it, ive been drunk hundreds of times and can make decisions on whether or not i want to have sex. im guessing theres probably been so many cases of a woman claiming rape following consensual drunk sex and that angers me. those people blow.

i think the legality of prostitution is similar to legalizing marijuana. the general public seems to support it, it makes sense on pretty much every front, the pros outweigh the cons, etc. its just a political thing, nobody is willing to gamble their career on a policy that likely doesnt effect them whatsoever,

i think user lateralus said something about 16 year olds. either way we only draw a legal boundary at 18 because we have to do it somewhere which i understand. Of course everyone matures at a different rate and nobody can say when a person can make choices like sex reasoably. Realyl though i dont think i am comfortable with someone being locked up for long periods of time for consensual sex with a 16ish year old. im just not sure its that big of a deal.

fluffy kittens brought up such a great point about victim blaming and i agree. I think that happens a lot and it's part of some sort of pseudo-outrage that people pretend to have for whatever reason. I've read thing suggesting that rape victims shouldnt be questioned by police and stuff right after a rape too which is kind of absurd. it seems to me like people will have you believe that victim blaming happens much more than it really does.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 216

anyways, i think it's stupid that a drunk woman's word cant be taken as consent. So is anyone who has ****ed a drunk girl a rapist?? probably like 90% of men are technically rapists in one way or another because of how rape is ldefined. lol i dont get it, ive been drunk hundreds of times and can make decisions on whether or not i want to have sex. im guessing theres probably been so many cases of a woman claiming rape following consensual drunk sex and that angers me. those people blow.

Ched Evans. That case genuinely angered me.

Ched Evans Was Wrongly Convicted of Rape on 20th April 2012 | Ched Evans Official Website

Key and Undisputed Facts

Read through it, it's a fucking farce. There was another one the other day whereby a woman slashed herself in the face with a knife after claiming her taxi driver had raped and attacked her. He was saved by the fact he recorded the journey on his phone. If he hadn't, then who knows what would have happened. I could post numerous examples of this within the last year if I was really arsed about it but I can't be bothered, but basically this shit happens all the time now.

Quote:

fluffy kittens brought up such a great point about victim blaming and i agree. I think that happens a lot and it's part of some sort of pseudo-outrage that people pretend to have for whatever reason. I've read thing suggesting that rape victims shouldnt be questioned by police and stuff right after a rape too which is kind of absurd. it seems to me like people will have you believe that victim blaming happens much more than it really does.

lol this is exactly what happens, this 'victim blaming' shit is an online phenomena and doesn't actually happen in the real world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateralus

Exactly. I agree, tore. There was a recent, awful rape/murder case in Melbourne, Australia recently involving a 29 year old Irish woman living here, Jill Meagher. She was walking home, alone, from a pub in the wee hours of the morning when she was dragged into an alleyway, raped and murdered.

As always, when there is a rape case, there were a variety of comments floating around about how it was her fault that she had decided to walk home alone, that it was her fault because she was probably intoxicated and not thinking straight, I remember even hearing that it was her fault because she was wearing high heels and makeup or something (what the?). I agree that it probably wasn't the best idea to walk home alone at night while intoxicated. However, that does NOT under any circumstances mean that she holds any bit of fault to being raped and murdered. She was not "asking for it."

Were people actually saying it was her fault though or just that it was stupid? I have no problem with the latter.

lol, two British tourists did something very similar to this, they went to a run down part of Florida, walked home at stupid o'clock and got killed. Florida Britons shot dead for refusing to pay mugger, court hears | World news | The Guardian

Awful crime but they are stupid cunts. I'm of a similar opinion with that lady but more so with these. If you're going to an unfamiliar place you should know what you're doing. You can say people shouldn't rape/rob/kill until the cows come home but fact is, people do and we do not live in a fantasy world. The reality is we live among sick people and if you take silly risks you can pay the ultimate price.

Astronomer · 07-08-2013, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

Were people actually saying it was her fault though or just that it was stupid? I have no problem with the latter.

I guess the people making these comments were insinuating it was her fault since she was doing something stupid. Yes, I agree it is stupid walking home alone in the middle of the night but no, I don't think this makes the rape/murder her fault.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 02:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateralus

I guess the people making these comments were insinuating it was her fault since she was doing something stupid. Yes, I agree it is stupid walking home alone in the middle of the night but no, I don't think this makes the rape/murder her fault.

I get what you're saying, not trying to be an arsehole but this is basically the point I'm making, maybe that is the case but this is ambiguous at best and I don't buy into this 'victim blaming' shtick being common enough to get upset over based off of that. Someone points out doing x was stupid and then people just respond with a load of 'rape is not the victim's fault', even though nobody said it was, is it actually happening or are we just pretending it's happening? I don't see why people think there should only be an outpouring of grief and anger when something like this happens and anything else is off limits. If she was being stupid, people are obviously gonna point that out. Doesn't mean it's her fault or that people are saying it's her fault.

Ched Evans is a stupid cunt as well.

~~butthead aka 216~~ · 07-08-2013, 02:11 AM

i agree Fluffy Kittens that victim blaming is one of several things that is more of an internet sensation than actually happening in the real world. i think things like social media and especially twitter make it easy to fool people into thinking somethin is more prevalent than it really is. you also reminded me of a video of a cab driver who was driving a few drunk girls who refused to pay the fare and then claimed he sexually assaulted them but luckily his camera was rolling.

Astronomer · 07-08-2013, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fluffy Kittens

I get what you're saying, not trying to be an arsehole but this is basically the point I'm making, maybe that is the case but this is ambiguous at best and I don't buy into this 'victim blaming' shtick being common enough to get upset over based off of that. Someone points out doing x was stupid and then people just respond with a load of 'rape is not the victim's fault', even though nobody said it was, is it actually happening or are we just pretending it's happening? I don't see why people think there should only be an outpouring of grief and anger when something like this happens and anything else is off limits. If she was being stupid, people are obviously gonna point that out. Doesn't mean it's her fault or that people are saying it's her fault.

Ched Evans is a stupid cunt as well.

Quote:

Jill put herself in a vunerable[sic] situation and therefore you need to understand that she owns some of the responsibility of what happened to her.

Quote:

Look at the way she was dressed. No wonder this happened. Who would walk home looking liek[sick] that?

Quote:

apparently she was drunk a nd[sic] a party girl, obviously asking for it.

These are just three quotes I found from a quick Google search of news articles and comments from when the incident happened. (The Age, The Australian, No Cookies | Herald Sun).

Of course when the incident happened there were many more comments following by members of the public, talkback radio etc, but I don't have the time to track them down right now.

Clearly these comments are not only indicating that what Jill did was stupid, but they are also victim blaming her, i.e. suggesting the crime is somewhat of her fault. This is what victim blaming is. Like I said, I too agree that walking home unaccompanied in the middle of the night is not the smartest thing to do. But I do not agree that the rape/murder was in ANY way her fault. And I do also think that comments like these ARE of victim blaming nature.

~~Cuthbert~~ · 07-08-2013, 02:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lateralus

These are just three quotes I found from a quick Google search of news articles and comments from when the incident happened. (The Age, The Australian, No Cookies | Herald Sun).

Of course when the incident happened there were many more comments following by members of the public, talkback radio etc, but I don't have the time to track them down right now.

Clearly these comments are not only indicating that what Jill did was stupid, but they are also victim blaming her, i.e. suggesting the crime is somewhat of her fault. This is what victim blaming is. Like I said, I too agree that walking home unaccompanied in the middle of the night is not the smartest thing to do. But I do not agree that the rape/murder was in ANY way her fault. And I do also think that comments like these ARE of victim blaming nature.

Yeah those second two are stupid, I can see why people would have an issue with those, first one just sounds like a dumbass trying to counter something and makes himself sound like a knob.

lol at even taking these people seriously or getting wound up by them when they can't even write correctly in their own language though. That's without even considering that the internet and stories like these are a troll's wet dream. Nobody in the real world thinks like this. Nobody reasonable anyway.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 216

i agree Fluffy Kittens that victim blaming is one of several things that is more of an internet sensation than actually happening in the real world. i think things like social media and especially twitter make it easy to fool people into thinking somethin is more prevalent than it really is. you also reminded me of a video of a cab driver who was driving a few drunk girls who refused to pay the fare and then claimed he sexually assaulted them but luckily his camera was rolling.

Grief junkies and moral warriors love Twitter. It's a competition on there to see who can be the most righteous or pay tribute first. I remember when Gaddafi died and some no-mark celebrity tweeted 'RIP Gaddafi', obviously without knowing who he was ffs

View Poll Results: Can you blame the victim for getting raped when raping someone is illegal?
Yes	7	13.73%
No	44	86.27%
Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

07-07-2013, 01:46 AM	#62 (permalink)
memycelfandeye Groupie Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Bay Area Posts: 6	This is a rather disturbing thread to be honest. Any argument about clothing or sobriety have no affect on the fact that the rapist is always the one who willingly makes decisions during the vile acts they commit.

07-07-2013, 02:33 AM	#63 (permalink)
~~Cuthbert~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Nov 2012 Location: The Black Country Posts: 8,827	The problem here is that people take statements like 'the risk could be minimised by not walking through high crime areas late at night/not being pissed as a fart' or other stuff like that as OMG THAT'S VICTIMBLAMING!!11 I can't be arsed to discuss whether x precaution minimises rape or not* but there is a difference between outright blaming someone for something and stating an opinion as to minimizing risk or whatever and people need to realise this instead of getting so offended. If you're in a high crime area late at night you're more likely to be a victim of crime. This is a fact. Does it mean you're to blame? No, not really. *For dress code specifically I don't know if it has any effect at all. People are quick to say rape is about power which is fair enough. I don't think it's as black and white as that though. Several factors can overlap and motivate someone to rape imo, think Jeffrey Dahmer said he would actually pick his victims based on appearance so it's not unreasonable to say some rapists are motivated by attraction (as well as other things). In the real world, very few people 'blame' the victim. I typed a long post re: Jeremy Forrest and this country's attitude to nonces and decided I just couldn't be arsed.

07-08-2013, 02:11 AM	#68 (permalink)
~~butthead aka 216~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: freely swimmin thru the waters of glory much like a majestic bald eagle soars thru the skies Posts: 1,463	i agree Fluffy Kittens that victim blaming is one of several things that is more of an internet sensation than actually happening in the real world. i think things like social media and especially twitter make it easy to fool people into thinking somethin is more prevalent than it really is. you also reminded me of a video of a cab driver who was driving a few drunk girls who refused to pay the fare and then claimed he sexually assaulted them but luckily his camera was rolling.