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View Poll Results: Choose.
Trout Mask Replica (1969) 26 47.27%
The Velvet Underground & Nico (1967) 29 52.73%
Voters: 55. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-21-2012, 01:00 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Forward To Death View Post
They're both highly influential albums on the alternative music scene that they essentially helped to shape. I don't think the comparison is about sound at all.
Fair enough - they are both hugely influential. I see your point there definitely.

Boy, I was listening to White Light/White Heat today and I love that album, I really do , but what a crazy mess and it sounds like absolute sh*t, like it was recorded on an old Radio Shack cassette recorder that got kicked into a bucket of Jello. It is amazing that a record like that got released on a major label. I really have to wonder if the Velvet's weren't taking the piss a bit with that one...
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Old 06-21-2012, 04:58 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Well they were at their oddest on that one for sure. Good album for people who like eccentric music, like me.
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Old 06-22-2012, 11:17 AM   #53 (permalink)
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I voted for Trout Mask Replica because it had the bigger album cover picture in the original post and I am easily influenced.

Actually, I voted TMR because it just had a much bigger impact upon me on first, and every, listen. I've always liked Underground and Nico and I listened to it before I touched Beefheart, but it sadly never changed my world. I mean, I rarely get through both sides of Underground and Nico before I get bored and switch to another record, which probably means I just don't know the songs well enough to enjoy them consistently but I also never had that problem with the Beef so he still wins out.
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:10 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chives View Post
I voted for Trout Mask Replica because it had the bigger album cover picture in the original post and I am easily influenced.

Actually, I voted TMR because it just had a much bigger impact upon me on first, and every, listen. I've always liked Underground and Nico and I listened to it before I touched Beefheart, but it sadly never changed my world. I mean, I rarely get through both sides of Underground and Nico before I get bored and switch to another record, which probably means I just don't know the songs well enough to enjoy them consistently but I also never had that problem with the Beef so he still wins out.
Ha Ha ! You should never judge an album by the size of its cover.
I suppose it`s equally unfair to judge an album by its opening lines:
Lou Reed: Sunday morning, praise the dawning - a feeble, contrived rhyme that only a 14-year-old should be proud of.
Beefheart: My smile is stuck. I cannot go back to your Frownland - the unusual use of simple words in blank verse highlights just how conventional Lou Reed`s writing was.

Also, Chives, don`t rule out the possibility that you get bored because some of the music is boring. For an album that`s regarded as avantgarde, it has some surprisingly dull and dated elements.
This track, for instance, was just an unexceptional filler on an record that the Stones had made two years prior to the Velvets reworking it :-

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Old 06-29-2012, 05:14 PM   #55 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisnaholic View Post
Ha Ha ! You should never judge an album by the size of its cover.
I suppose it`s equally unfair to judge an album by its opening lines:
Lou Reed: Sunday morning, praise the dawning - a feeble, contrived rhyme that only a 14-year-old should be proud of.
Beefheart: My smile is stuck. I cannot go back to your Frownland - the unusual use of simple words in blank verse highlights just how conventional Lou Reed`s writing was.

Also, Chives, don`t rule out the possibility that you get bored because some of the music is boring. For an album that`s regarded as avantgarde, it has some surprisingly dull and dated elements.
This track, for instance, was just an unexceptional filler on an record that the Stones had made two years prior to the Velvets reworking it :-

Yes, I honestly feel that "There She Goes Again" is the second weakest track on the album (after "Femme Fatale"). This is largely due to the fact that it borders on plagiarism and could have been written (instrumentally, that is) by any other garage rock band at the time. However, it's still retains some creativity. The subject behind the song deals with prostitution. Reed sings in a joking/playful manner with a sarcastic chorus (Cale and Morrison) bellowing "There she goes!" in the background. All of this is backed by a funky and upbeat instrumental section, which sort of adds an element of humor to the whole affair. So... in a way, it's still creative.

Reed's lyricism (influenced by his teacher and mentor, Delmore Schwartz), as you briefly mentioned, was intended to be simplistic. The idea behind this was to convey as much meaning and emotion as he possibly could with very few words... not too dissimilar to what Hemingway did as an author. The funny thing is he continued this concept with his singing, which could easily be viewed as a flaw. Although, in the case, it's a strength in that he's attempting to do with his voice what he was doing with his lyrics. Except this time he's conveying as much emotion as he can with a voice dominated by monotone and a deadpan aesthetic.

Last edited by TockTockTock; 06-29-2012 at 05:22 PM.
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:32 PM   #56 (permalink)
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Welcome back, Jack Pat ! I`ve been wondering what happened to you recently. Thanks for replying so politely to another of my complaints about Lou Reed.

Yes, when I listened to the Stones` and the Velvet`s songs, I realized that the Velvet Underground gave the song a completely new lease of life; a more interesting topic, better lyrics and a more modern, jaded, streetwise attitude. Lou Reed puts enough new substance into the song to hold your attention, at least for a few play-throughs anyway.

Quote:
... The idea behind this was to convey as much meaning and emotion as he possibly could with very few words... not too dissimilar to what Hemingway did as an author. The funny thing is he continued this concept with his singing, which could easily be viewed as a flaw. Although, in the case, it's a strength in that he's attempting to do with his voice what he was doing with his lyrics. Except this time he's conveying as much emotion as he can with a voice dominated by monotone and a deadpan aesthetic.
When he`s not crooning, I`ve always liked LR`s singing style -it`s such a welcome rebuff to all those shriekers and weepers who try so hard to get our attention. Leonard Cohen does something similar, although I admire LC`s lyrics a lot more than Lou Reed`s :-



Lou Reed and Hemingway :

Quote:
The New York Times wrote in 1926 of Hemingway's first novel, "No amount of analysis can convey the quality of The Sun Also Rises. It is a truly gripping story, told in a lean, hard, athletic narrative prose that puts more literary English to shame."
^ When you read something like this, it`s easy to think that Hemingway`s style is worth emulating, but I wonder if any of these points crossed Lou Reed`s mind :-
Firstly, what was a daring, original approach in 1926 isn`t going to have the same impact 40 years later.
Secondly, Hemingway`s style was very effective for someone who had an exciting story to tell, as with his First World War experiences. The lean writing style doesn`t work so well when your narrator is drifting rather aimlessly around a peaceful, civilized city. Hemingway himself proved this when, in the 50`s he wrote A Moveable Feast about his days in Paris; his philosophy of writing had reduced him to writing a book that wasn`t much better than a worked-up diary. It is by turns, dull, repetitive and shallow.
Finally, Hemingway was originally reacting against a verbose, pompous style of Edwardian literature. He was like an energetic gardener, hacking away at the dead wood. Lou Reed, though, had nothing to hack away at; sixties pop lyrics had already been reduced to a banal minimum.
So my feeling is that LR straight-jacketed himself to an outmoded, unoriginal, facile style of writing, which set the bar for lyricists dangerously low. If he has been influential, it may be because a lot of wanna-be song-writers hear him and think, in Bowie`s words," Oh God I could do better than that !"
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:13 PM   #57 (permalink)
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Voted for VU, because I find TMR one of the weakest CB records (especially of his early stuff). Try as I might, and believe me I've tried, it does very little for me. This admission is usually enough to get one banned from any serious music discussion, but I throw myself on you mercy.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:28 PM   #58 (permalink)
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Voted for VU, because I find TMR one of the weakest CB records (especially of his early stuff). Try as I might, and believe me I've tried, it does very little for me. This admission is usually enough to get one banned from any serious music discussion, but I throw myself on you mercy.
Oh please... Step off your soap box.

So, why do you think it's one of his weakest albums? Please share some details into how you came to this conclusion.
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:52 PM   #59 (permalink)
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When I listen to it I can't help but get the feeling that it is dissonance for dissonance's sake. Rather like a child showing off with what he can get away with. From a total point of view I don't think there is any flow to the album, it is a series of ditties, like 1950s beatnik poetry. The music does not expand, it doesn't have a structure that allows the listener to be caught up in the journey (at least not this listener).

It also lacks any essence of humour. If you take FZ's other projects at this time the one thing that links them is the 'joy' of the music. GTOs, Alice Cooper, and Wild Man make me smile. Normally, CB can have that effect, but not in this case. Interesting that it bombed in the US on release, but scored minor success in the UK - mainly on the back of John Peel's enthusiastic support. I often wondered how much JP was taking the piss with the records he supported. I mean, Tyrannosaurus Rex? I ask you.
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:04 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Apostle View Post
When I listen to it I can't help but get the feeling that it is dissonance for dissonance's sake. Rather like a child showing off with what he can get away with.
Why exactly do you say that?

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From a total point of view I don't think there is any flow to the album, it is a series of ditties, like 1950s beatnik poetry. The music does not expand, it doesn't have a structure that allows the listener to be caught up in the journey (at least not this listener).
Actually, while the song structures do radically change in almost every track on the album, some of them continue a certain motif, such as with "Sweet Sweet Bulbs" and "When Big Joan Sets Up." However, lack of consistent or primary melodies and the fast song progressions isn't a set back for this album (in my opinion). It's one of the numerous characteristics of the music that gives Trout Mask Replica its reputation.

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It also lacks any essence of humour. If you take FZ's other projects at this time the one thing that links them is the 'joy' of the music. GTOs, Alice Cooper, and Wild Man make me smile. Normally, CB can have that effect, but not in this case. Interesting that it bombed in the US on release, but scored minor success in the UK - mainly on the back of John Peel's enthusiastic support. I often wondered how much JP was taking the piss with the records he supported. I mean, Tyrannosaurus Rex? I ask you.
I feel his weird, clever wordplay and the overall aesthetic of the music contradicts your comment about TMR's lack of humor. I mean... did you actually listen to the album?

On another note, I don't really understand how lack of humor is a negative quality... I wouldn't want albums like Son House's Father of Folk Blues, My Bloody Valentine's Loveless, or Keiji Haino's Watashi Dake to have elements of humor. It would just weaken the atmosphere that those albums try to cultivate.

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