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Old 06-23-2009, 02:13 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Out-of-pocket Health Care costs the leading cause of bankruptcy:

http://pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study...uptcy-2009.pdf
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Old 06-23-2009, 02:46 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Out-of-pocket Health Care costs the leading cause of bankruptcy:

http://pnhp.org/new_bankruptcy_study...uptcy-2009.pdf
Again, please post an economic solution to how it can be implemeneted effectively in the US. The theoretical nonsense in this thread is great, but truly useless.
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Old 06-23-2009, 05:17 PM   #83 (permalink)
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We have a bunch of bureaucrats in office that have for the most part never run a business in their collective lives...

The problem is the idea of a single payer system that is probably the end result of the government entering as they want to. They enter ostensibly as "competition" in an effort, which they will do in the end as a result of rationing. They will force out any private competition they have because no one can truly compete pricing with the government, since the gov. has shown pure faith into just taking on more and more debt with no foresight into the future...
Alright well for the first thing I'd prefer to have a little more of an explanation as to why that matters. I'm fairly certain that many have worked in business, have had private practices and the like...

But as for the second, heres what I don't get. You keep saying price, and I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'll assume you're pro-free market.

If what the "conservatives" say is true, government health care will take months to do anything. If that's the case, why would price matter? Shouldn't the government HC fail to catch on due to its inherent bureaucratic process?
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Old 06-23-2009, 09:09 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Alright well for the first thing I'd prefer to have a little more of an explanation as to why that matters. I'm fairly certain that many have worked in business, have had private practices and the like...

But as for the second, heres what I don't get. You keep saying price, and I'm going to go out on a limb here, but I'll assume you're pro-free market.

If what the "conservatives" say is true, government health care will take months to do anything. If that's the case, why would price matter? Shouldn't the government HC fail to catch on due to its inherent bureaucratic process?
First part is you're putting a ton of faith of handling major $$$ industries in the hands of people who have shown a complete lac of the idea of fiscal responsibly and are in love with the thought of taking on debt and leaving the debt to be recalled once they are a past thought. Not exactly strong business procedures.

And I do believe government health care will fail. The problem is if it fails, we've wasted a ton of much needed $$$ and pushed ourselves further into debt for a failed result. Even worse can be if we realize the failure after forcing out the private insurers and have encompassed ourselves in this system that at that point we wouldn't be able to get out of.

I'm not sure I completely understand your last point so hopefully I touched on something...been a long night.
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Old 06-24-2009, 03:11 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Again, please post an economic solution to how it can be implemeneted effectively in the US. The theoretical nonsense in this thread is great, but truly useless.
I wouldn't presume to understand the United States' economic, medical, social and industrial situation well enough or have nearly enough experience or knowledge to post a complete economic solution to solve your health care problem. I don't know what theoretical nonsense you're referring to; there are lots of well-working social health care programs going on in the world, which the US seems to stubbornly refuse to examine for suggestions. My point was merely to share some information on how damaging the current industry is and further my point about how I believe it is barbaric for one of the most developed and wealthy nations in the world to have such a bloated and money-grubbing system for providing basic human rights.
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Old 06-24-2009, 06:52 AM   #86 (permalink)
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I wouldn't presume to understand the United States' economic, medical, social and industrial situation well enough or have nearly enough experience or knowledge to post a complete economic solution to solve your health care problem. I don't know what theoretical nonsense you're referring to; there are lots of well-working social health care programs going on in the world, which the US seems to stubbornly refuse to examine for suggestions. My point was merely to share some information on how damaging the current industry is and further my point about how I believe it is barbaric for one of the most developed and wealthy nations in the world to have such a bloated and money-grubbing system for providing basic human rights.
I'd have to say I agree with that. But I can't say my country is doing any better. But we are not as obsessed with getting into debt!
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Old 06-24-2009, 08:11 AM   #87 (permalink)
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First part is you're putting a ton of faith of handling major $$$ industries in the hands of people who have shown a complete lac of the idea of fiscal responsibly and are in love with the thought of taking on debt and leaving the debt to be recalled once they are a past thought. Not exactly strong business procedures.

And I do believe government health care will fail. The problem is if it fails, we've wasted a ton of much needed $$$ and pushed ourselves further into debt for a failed result. Even worse can be if we realize the failure after forcing out the private insurers and have encompassed ourselves in this system that at that point we wouldn't be able to get out of.

I'm not sure I completely understand your last point so hopefully I touched on something...been a long night.
What I mean to say is this

There is a claim that government can out-insure people because it can tax for income and keep its prices low.

But thats not been the rallying cry against socialized medicine until now. What has typically been the case is claims of 4 month waiting periods for things as simple as an x-ray.

We're supposed to believe that injuries become far more serious because they aren't treated immediatly.

if thats true

then why does it matter how much this supposed ****ty health insurance costs? Even if its free the only people who would take it would be those who can't afford HMO's.

Like a national defense system, I believe that national health care is one of the few things the government should offer/do.

And from a Political standpoint, let me say this. I have zero problem with Reagan and his presidency. And he was a damn good politician but he ushered in this "us vs. the government" thought process, while simultaneously saying "the people run the government"

I'm not sure how the two work together but I'll say this. People came together and agreed upon government. This isn't some foreign interloper coming here to overthrow us and lead our lives.

Government should at the very least have its peoples protection in mind. I think the idea that Healthcare goes to the private sector is as smart as giving the Nation Defense, our military, to the Private Sector. I see an obvious parallel and I don't think many would agree we should have the Navy run by Lockheed/Martin, and the Air Force run by Boeing.

I'd be curious to hear your opinion on this one Alejo, assuming of course I was coherent this time (I can never tell when I am or not)
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Old 06-24-2009, 08:16 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Wrong. Eliminating wrongful death suits would maybe decrease costs 1-2%. Also I'm sure a bunch of people would want to sign up to a healthcare system that eliminates their right to tort law. Really GREAT idea.

And it's definitely coming. The polls are already starting to show a push against those currently in power. This will get through before the next set of elections.
We agree to disagree.
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Old 06-24-2009, 04:36 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Gonna go at this parts at a time.

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There is a claim that government can out-insure people because it can tax for income and keep its prices low.
Eh, I claim the government can out-insure people because they can price it however they please because they have no stakeholders who have an interest in turning a profit and are comfortable with the fact of taking on massive amounts of debt that they never plan on paying.

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But thats not been the rallying cry against socialized medicine until now. What has typically been the case is claims of 4 month waiting periods for things as simple as an x-ray.

We're supposed to believe that injuries become far more serious because they aren't treated immediatly.

if thats true

then why does it matter how much this supposed ****ty health insurance costs? Even if its free the only people who would take it would be those who can't afford HMO's.
Because if you tax current health benefits it is more cost effective for these companies to no longer offer such benefits, letting their employees instead be put into these government issues programs.

Quote:
Government should at the very least have its peoples protection in mind. I think the idea that Healthcare goes to the private sector is as smart as giving the Nation Defense, our military, to the Private Sector. I see an obvious parallel and I don't think many would agree we should have the Navy run by Lockheed/Martin, and the Air Force run by Boeing.
Again, in theory this is a great idea. But there is no substance in to how effectively it can be enacted in our society with our economic situation. Pointing to other countries isn't an argument, as the situations are no where near similar.
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Old 06-24-2009, 07:40 PM   #90 (permalink)
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So you're for a privatization of national defense?
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