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View Poll Results: Is suicide cowardly?
Yes 39 20.74%
No 79 42.02%
Sometimes, depends on the circumstances (kids etc.) 70 37.23%
Voters: 188. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-13-2011, 10:14 AM   #361 (permalink)
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I actually knew somebody who did exactly this. He got a surgically reconstructed face after a botched gunshot to the palate. It kind of made me respect him. He was depressed enough to shoot himself, failed, fucked up his face, burdened his loved ones and then went on living. I definitely never thought of him as a coward.
I'm in the same boat. An old boss of mine who kept close with my family tried to do the Cobain in his bathtub, but his brother came in and grabbed the gun when the guy fired, blowing off his cheek and parts of his face. He lived, only to successfully do the same thing about 8 months later.
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Old 04-13-2011, 11:09 AM   #362 (permalink)
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I was leaning more towards suicide being morrally neutral, rather than cowardly or selfish. But again, physicall, suicide affects no one but the person who kills themself. It's like getting an ugly tattoo. Other people may not want to look at it, but in the end, it's YOUR body and YOUR decision.
just because the person feels that they are alone and that no one cares about them it does affect the people that DO care about them emotionally at least. Some people can be so affected by it that it does long term psychological damage to the person.

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Originally Posted by oojay View Post
But EVERYTHING we do could somehow affect others either mentally or emotionally. We can't control other people's feelings or emotions. If we fretted every time someone else got sad or upset, we'd all be apathetic losers walking around with our heads down, it would consume our entire lives.
It's not even about letting others emotions consume you. It's just being aware that it does happen and that is as good as any reason to stay alive imo. I dunno. i just see the bigger picture of it all. Muslims have a saying that to save the life of one man is to save the life of the whole people or something along those lines. I believe that.

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I disagree completely that death is the easy way out. It seems more of a philisophical question of if you value death as much as life. I don't want to spur another religious or philisophical debate, but I personally view death as just another part of life. Both are equally important.
The reason why I say death is an easy way out is because the person is being bogged down with problems and issues that they think they will never be able to solve and they just want to make the pain go away. Of course that's an easier way out than dealing with your problems and working through whatever is going on in your life. I too see death differently than others. One of the main reasons I don't attend funerals. When people pass away I don't say goodbye but see you later. Whenever that later is I'm not quite sure but I feel positive about the situation and I feel like one day in the future I will see them again.

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And I believe that it takes a million times more courage to step out onto the tracks infront of a moving train and kill yourself than it does to get a minimum wage job so you can flip burgers for the next 50 years, be in debt up to your eyeballs, and wake up every day wishing that you were dead. I'd rather die and feel nothing than live and feel horrible.
That is not courage at all, that's just straight up being a coward and running away from your problems. That person doesn't have to flip burgers for the next 50 years if they get help and counseling. I'm sure they will be told other options and choices that they have for their life.

Don't take this the wrong way but i believe you should seek some counseling honestly.



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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post

On another note, I definitely think ''cowardly'' is the wrong word to ascribe to the situation, because ''being brave enough to live'' isn't something that comes into it. Continuing life has nothing to do with bravery, so using the opposing terminology in regards to quitting life just seems inaccurate to me. I'm not brave for being alive, whether I want to be or not. I just wish that these words would stop being brought into a topic that is broader than the emotions they encompass.
People that are depressed and have suicidal thoughts ARE brave enough to live life and push through their problems and if also seek help if they are able to muster up enough courage to do that on their own. That is what I mean by continuing life having everything to do with bravery.

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Originally Posted by Pedestrian View Post
As for demonizing illness, specifically depression, society definitely does this. I have been depressed, and admitting it is still rather humiliating to me, as is my behaviour and situation at the time of it. There is enormous stigma about depression and attention seeking, about depression being a state of mind rather than an illness, and heck, there's even an entire stereotype predicated on being unhappy and misunderstood, and it's the laughing stock of the 00s. It's no wonder it's hard to seek help when you believe you will be mocked for what you are feeling.
Yes, society as a whole demonizes is but there are so many avenues and ways to get/seek help. If you have someone that really cares about you pushing you to get help at one of these centers and you actually go along with it, it will be for the better. I know when you are depressed you push away those that care about you so it's not the easiest thing to do but it's an internal struggle within the person. Some people care about what others think about them so they don't want to get help for depression for fear of ridicule. That's also an internal struggle that the person has to deal with an overcome before they can be brave enough to take the steps to get help.
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IMO I don't know jack-**** though so don't listen to me.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:03 PM   #363 (permalink)
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I meant to confirm what you said .
Ohh okay! I misunderstood.
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Old 04-13-2011, 02:21 PM   #364 (permalink)
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Or I wasn't clear. Either of those
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Old 04-13-2011, 04:04 PM   #365 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by djchameleon View Post
just because the person feels that they are alone and that no one cares about them it does affect the people that DO care about them emotionally at least. Some people can be so affected by it that it does long term psychological damage to the person.
Fair point.


Quote:
The reason why I say death is an easy way out is because the person is being bogged down with problems and issues that they think they will never be able to solve and they just want to make the pain go away. Of course that's an easier way out than dealing with your problems and working through whatever is going on in your life. I too see death differently than others. One of the main reasons I don't attend funerals. When people pass away I don't say goodbye but see you later. Whenever that later is I'm not quite sure but I feel positive about the situation and I feel like one day in the future I will see them again.

Oojay is right though- death IS a natural part of living, and it is something that nearly every single living thing on this planet will go through. It's pointless being scared or worried about it, because we were 'dead' millions of years before our death and will be so again for probably the same period of time. Richard Dawkins argues that it's like a ruler- your life marked out on some universal ruler is tiny, if not practically non-existant, and so to worry about death is pointless.

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That is not courage at all, that's just straight up being a coward and running away from your problems. That person doesn't have to flip burgers for the next 50 years if they get help and counseling. I'm sure they will be told other options and choices that they have for their life.
Speaking as someone who has three times attempted suicide, I find this completely and utterly ridiculous. People who commit suicide and succeed in doing so have taken an action which takes a hell of a lot of balls. You might not agree with that decision but taking the choice to end your life is an incredibly difficult one. It's not something you do on a whim, and most people who commit suicide KNOW there's no coming back, no changing your mind once you're hanging there/taking the pills/jumping from a great big building.

My first suicide attempt was an attempt to hang myself. I went to my garage, got the tow rope from the cupboard that I had planned to use and made the noose. All the time I knew what I was doing, I knew that if I went through with this, I would die, end of story. No going back.

Quote:
People that are depressed and have suicidal thoughts ARE brave enough to live life and push through their problems and if also seek help if they are able to muster up enough courage to do that on their own. That is what I mean by continuing life having everything to do with bravery.
I suffer from both of those and it seems that some people are so damaged by whatever it is they've been hurt by, they simply can't recover. No amount of counselling is going to put things completely right, and no amount of pills. Simply demanding that they continue to suffer is cruel on the part of people who are supposed to give a damn about that person.

I am not saying however that suicide is always the answer in these situations, but that you have to understand that getting help isn't always going to do that much good. Sometimes it's like putting a sticking plaster on a broken arm.

I'm currently going through cognitive behavioral therapy for depression, anxiety and self-harm, and although the therapy is helping, it's not a miracle cure and it's not going to cure me of all my issues. Much of what is going on in my head is so deep-rooted and has affected/damaged me so much, it's never going to go away. It's like smashing a pot- you can glue it back together but the cracks are still there, and they will always be weak.

Quote:
Yes, society as a whole demonizes is but there are so many avenues and ways to get/seek help. If you have someone that really cares about you pushing you to get help at one of these centers and you actually go along with it, it will be for the better. I know when you are depressed you push away those that care about you so it's not the easiest thing to do but it's an internal struggle within the person. Some people care about what others think about them so they don't want to get help for depression for fear of ridicule. That's also an internal struggle that the person has to deal with an overcome before they can be brave enough to take the steps to get help.
OK, yeah, getting help IS easier. But actively admitting that you need mental help is still hard, and often people are forced to hide their need for treatment like this simply because society DOES demonize it.

I've had to hide my own therapy and drug treatments away from everybody simply to avoid the stigma and ridicule which this attracts. My own FAMILY don't even know. Not one of them.
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Old 04-13-2011, 07:35 PM   #366 (permalink)
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No matter how bad things get, as long as you are alive you can fix them.
I disagree that all problems have a solution.

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You are not the root of your problem, you are not the enemy of your own life. Because at the end of the day, the only thing you're sure of is yourself, your existence - your Life.
I think that this is part of the problem. While you can control your own actions, you have no way of controlling others'. You can't stop your wife from leaving you. You can't stop your boss from firing you. You can't control any outside factors that directly affect you.

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Originally Posted by djchameleon View Post
just because the person feels that they are alone and that no one cares about them it does affect the people that DO care about them emotionally at least. Some people can be so affected by it that it does long term psychological damage to the person.
I think we're on the same page here, we're just giving differnt weight to other people's feelings and emotions. People shouldn't do anything to purposely upset others, but in the end, tough sh*t. People are always going to be upset about something. We cannot control what goes on in their mind, it's not our problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djchameleon
People that are depressed and have suicidal thoughts ARE brave enough to live life and push through their problems and if also seek help if they are able to muster up enough courage to do that on their own. That is what I mean by continuing life having everything to do with bravery.
I feel that suicide is always a last resort. If a person gets to that point, I would think that they have already looked at every other solution. If they still want to do it after considering everything, then that is their business. I don't think that most suicides are just a spur-of-the-moment decision.
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Old 04-14-2011, 07:14 AM   #367 (permalink)
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Oojay is right though- death IS a natural part of living, and it is something that nearly every single living thing on this planet will go through. It's pointless being scared or worried about it, because we were 'dead' millions of years before our death and will be so again for probably the same period of time. Richard Dawkins argues that it's like a ruler- your life marked out on some universal ruler is tiny, if not practically non-existant, and so to worry about death is pointless.
I agreed with him maybe you mis-read what I said. I understand that people view death as just another step to take.

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Originally Posted by GeddyBass2112 View Post
Speaking as someone who has three times attempted suicide, I find this completely and utterly ridiculous. People who commit suicide and succeed in doing so have taken an action which takes a hell of a lot of balls. You might not agree with that decision but taking the choice to end your life is an incredibly difficult one. It's not something you do on a whim, and most people who commit suicide KNOW there's no coming back, no changing your mind once you're hanging there/taking the pills/jumping from a great big building.

My first suicide attempt was an attempt to hang myself. I went to my garage, got the tow rope from the cupboard that I had planned to use and made the noose. All the time I knew what I was doing, I knew that if I went through with this, I would die, end of story. No going back.
I know you are coming into the discussion late but I already talked about that and I will just re-quote myself.

Quote:
I agree with some of the points Dirty made but not all of them. Suicide is cowardly AND selfish. Most people that attempt suicide and fail is because they were too much of a coward to do it the right way and off their selves. The people that constantly talk about suicide and keep threatening to do it are also cowardly and just crying out for help. If someone wanted to really commit suicide they would plot out all of the details in there head so there is no way that they can fail and to not set off any alarms so that someone could stop them. They pretend to be happy/normal around people so that they can get it over and done with, without having someone interrupt their process.
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I suffer from both of those and it seems that some people are so damaged by whatever it is they've been hurt by, they simply can't recover. No amount of counselling is going to put things completely right, and no amount of pills. Simply demanding that they continue to suffer is cruel on the part of people who are supposed to give a damn about that person.
I'm sorry to hear that but some people CAN benefit from help/counseling.

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I am not saying however that suicide is always the answer in these situations, but that you have to understand that getting help isn't always going to do that much good. Sometimes it's like putting a sticking plaster on a broken arm.
I understand that because I have also had a suicide attempt but I know I didn't really want to off myself and I was just very scared at that point in time.

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I'm currently going through cognitive behavioral therapy for depression, anxiety and self-harm, and although the therapy is helping, it's not a miracle cure and it's not going to cure me of all my issues. Much of what is going on in my head is so deep-rooted and has affected/damaged me so much, it's never going to go away. It's like smashing a pot- you can glue it back together but the cracks are still there, and they will always be weak.
Yeah, some people are just so far gone that therapy and medication doesn't help too much but I think the number of people those two things DO help far outnumbers the rare people that it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by GeddyBass2112 View Post
OK, yeah, getting help IS easier. But actively admitting that you need mental help is still hard, and often people are forced to hide their need for treatment like this simply because society DOES demonize it.
Again, this depends on the person. For example, I could give two ****s that society demonizes it. I mustered up enough courage to go get help and was even put on pills but I don't like them so I stopped taking meds.

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I've had to hide my own therapy and drug treatments away from everybody simply to avoid the stigma and ridicule which this attracts. My own FAMILY don't even know. Not one of them.
I do too. I try to act normal around my family but that's because they are the most judgmental of the bunch. It's way easier to talk to strangers and friends about it than it is to talk to family about it. I haven't told any of my family. Families are usually not as understanding bout these sort of things as other people are.

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I disagree that all problems have a solution.
I know you weren't talking to me about this but we will have to agree to disagree on that point.

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Originally Posted by oojay View Post
I think that this is part of the problem. While you can control your own actions, you have no way of controlling others'. You can't stop your wife from leaving you. You can't stop your boss from firing you. You can't control any outside factors that directly affect you.
True you can't control those factors but you CAN control your reaction to them.

There is this saying "In life it's not about the fall but how you pick yourself up from the fall."


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Originally Posted by oojay View Post
I think we're on the same page here, we're just giving different weight to other people's feelings and emotions. People shouldn't do anything to purposely upset others, but in the end, tough sh*t. People are always going to be upset about something. We cannot control what goes on in their mind, it's not our problem.
Yep I agree with that. omfg we finally agree on something lol.

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Originally Posted by oojay View Post
I feel that suicide is always a last resort. If a person gets to that point, I would think that they have already looked at every other solution. If they still want to do it after considering everything, then that is their business. I don't think that most suicides are just a spur-of-the-moment decision.
Well that is not always the case about suicide being the last resort. While the person is under the effects of depression they may feel like it's the last resort but it isn't. Sometimes, they don't even really think about all the options they may have because they are so overwhelmed by their emotions and the pain hurts too much. They just want a release from the pain.
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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.


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IMO I don't know jack-**** though so don't listen to me.
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The problem is that most police officers in America are psychopaths.
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You're a terrible dictionary.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:44 PM   #368 (permalink)
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Well that is not always the case about suicide being the last resort. While the person is under the effects of depression they may feel like it's the last resort but it isn't. Sometimes, they don't even really think about all the options they may have because they are so overwhelmed by their emotions and the pain hurts too much. They just want a release from the pain.
Okay, I'm tired of hearing about hypotheticals and cowardess and the grass always being greener. Let's try it out.

Say you had one hour (sixty whole minutes) to talk someone out of committing suicide. Let's bring up better options. Let's "counsel" them. Solve their problems and make them change their mind. It's apparently that easy according to this thread. It is currently 6:44pm CST. Sixty minutes. Go.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:30 AM   #369 (permalink)
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Okay, I'm tired of hearing about hypotheticals and cowardess and the grass always being greener. Let's try it out.

Say you had one hour (sixty whole minutes) to talk someone out of committing suicide. Let's bring up better options. Let's "counsel" them. Solve their problems and make them change their mind. It's apparently that easy according to this thread. It is currently 6:44pm CST. Sixty minutes. Go.
What?

I'm no professional call the suicide hotline and according to the time of this post it's probably too late but here is the number anyways.

1-800-784-2433

ugh I hope he hasn't done something stupid.
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Fame, fortune, power, titties. People say these are the most crucial things in life, but you can have a pocket full o' gold and it doesn't mean sh*t if you don't have someone to share that gold with. Seems simple. Yet it's an important lesson to learn. Even lone wolves run in packs sometimes.


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IMO I don't know jack-**** though so don't listen to me.
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The problem is that most police officers in America are psychopaths.
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You're a terrible dictionary.
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Old 12-31-2011, 09:31 PM   #370 (permalink)
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