Got Feminism?

DwnWthVwls · 01-13-2015, 05:49 PM

Just saying women can get away with a lot more stuff than men can because society dictates that men can overpower women. Not that I support hitting women, I was raised to never raise your hand to a woman and I'm also pretty passive in general, but that shouldn't stop me or anyone else from recognizing these kinds of inconsistencies in the system.

Oriphiel · 01-13-2015, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Just saying women can get away with a lot more stuff than men can because society dictates that men can overpower women. Not that I support hitting girls, I was raised to never raise your hand to a woman and I'm also pretty passive in general, but that shouldn't stop me or anyone else from recognizing these kinds of inconsistencies in the system.

Women all over the world have to put up with a terrible culture of domestic abuse, and that's a benefit? What exactly do they "get away with" in this scenario? So police often give women the benefit of the doubt when they call and report domestic abuse, and the cops arrive on the scene and see bruises all over her. I'd say that that's not even remotely a benefit that outweighs the detriments of the situation.

I get the point you were trying to make, but your choice of words was very poor.

DwnWthVwls · 01-13-2015, 05:58 PM

I'm strictly speaking in American culture, I know things are messed up in other parts of the world but I'm not part of their culture and have a limited understanding of it so I'm not going to pass judgement on it.

What they get away with is, if some psycho is attacking you with a knife or something, the guy is just expected to disarm her or defend himself without harming her, meanwhile the same situation can be reversed and the chick could probably kill the guy claiming self-defense and get away with it. You are putting words in my mouth, the type of scenario your setting up has absolutely nothing to do with the imbalance in the system I am speaking of. Obviously, when a woman calls the cops and they arrive to her covered in bruises and beat to sh*t there is something wrong with the guy and not her 99.9999% of the time.

Edit: Maybe Domestic Violence was a poor choice of words, but hopefully that's a little bit more clear.

Oriphiel · 01-13-2015, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

I'm strictly speaking in American culture, I know things are messed up in other parts of the world but I'm not part of their culture and have a limited understanding of it so I'm not going to pass judgement on it.

What they get away with is if some psycho is attacking you with a knife or something the guy is just expected to disarm her or defend himself without harming her, meanwhile the same situation can be reversed and the chick could probably kill the guy claiming self-defense and get away with it. You are putting words in my mouth, the type of scenario your setting up has absolutely nothing to do with the imbalance in the system I am speaking of. Obviously, when a woman calls the cops and they arrive to her covered in bruises and beat to sh*t there is something wrong with the guy and not her 99.9999% of the time.

I think you're regretting writing "domestic abuse" as a benefit that women have, and now you're trying to defend yourself with sentiments about women getting off of murder/manslaughter charges. Society gives men positive reinforcement to defend themselves, while constantly painting women as helpless victims? What a burden.

DwnWthVwls · 01-13-2015, 06:13 PM

I don't know why you keep using this word "benefit", the 3 points I made were not intended to be benefits. It was a list of three important things where sexual inequality bends in the favor of women, that doesn't make it a benefit. For instance, the only "benefit" of lowered test scores is that women have an easier time getting a job in that field. How about considering the danger they put their male counterparts/themselves in by not being physically fit for the same duties, or their inability to protect citizens/themselves as efficiently.

And my previous comment edit I admit, "domestic abuse" was probably a poor choice of words to describe the point I was trying to make.

Oriphiel · 01-13-2015, 06:16 PM

Heh, it's all good. Water under the bridge. A whole bunch of people are plugging right now, you should join us!

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 01-13-2015, 06:19 PM

here's my basic stance. feel free to tear it apart, but you know i will probably have some **** to say back so yea. fair warning.

i support the general idea of equal rights and i do think that generally speaking women get the short end of the stick. i think the whole patriarchy concept does make sense and most of the examples of men getting the short end of the stick are a result of a) modern attempts to correct the historical injustice women have faced or b) generally having lower expectations of women than we do of men because of the sexist notion that women are less capable than men in general.

however i do think there is something to 'gender roles' that goes deeper than just cultural norms. i think the basic mating strategy that humans have adopted has gender roles built right into it. i can expand on that if need be but i'll leave it at that for now. long story short i think the "man works, woman tends to the kids" arrangement has a pretty sound biological basis to it and so the modern attempt to sort of transcend that dynamic is probably well-meaning but it is a lot trickier than i think a lot of progressives and feminists want to admit.

i don't call myself a feminist partially because of the image that feminists have in our society. basically they come across as whiney and annoying for the most part. i think part of that is a backlash against their ideals but another part of it is the fact that the movement is actually full of loud mouthed twats who look for any excuse to bitch and complain about every little thing.

plus, they hate a lot of the stuff i love. they hate hemingway cause he's 'sexist and homophobic.' i like hemingway cause his books are enjoyable to me. they hate misogynistic rap music cause it demeans women. i like misogynistic rap music because it's fun to listen to. they want language and art to be non-offensive and to make them and other minorities feel comfortable. i want them to man up and grow some thicker skin. basically i feel uncomfortable in the kind of PC world they want to create and they feel uncomfortable in my world. so even though i do think women should be paid a fair wage and **** like that, i can't be a feminist cause it just goes against my nature.

Xurtio · 01-13-2015, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls

Nope, nope, and nope. That is totally dependent on what you're discussing. How can you claim that and then dispute it in the following few sentences?

I didn't dispute it. I demonstrated that it's more complicated than just saying men have it easy always forever in every way. As I said, there are different
"domains" (which is equivalent to your "totally dependent on what you're discussing") and I wanted to raise the exceptions to the tendency for cultures to adopt 2).

The tendency (patriarchy) is already well established in classical feminist literature. Our society is largely run by males. They are the majority of law enforcers, law designers, doctors. So health and law, even pertaining to women, is decided on by men. It's not a big, evil conspiracy, it's just a matter of consequence: when a minority is not well represented in the administrative process, needs that pertain specifically to them aren't met as well as they are for the majority class.

Also, regardless of any cold facts or laws, the way we treat women historically in all societies has had a pretty poor history. In the west, we do better than most, but the source of all these tendencies are somewhat biological and intrinsic and we have to overcome those natural tendencies if we want to progress as a society.

WWWP · 01-13-2015, 06:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Wilkes Booth

here's my basic stance. feel free to tear it apart, but you know i will probably have some **** to say back so yea. fair warning.

i support the general idea of equal rights and i do think that generally speaking women get the short end of the stick. i think the whole patriarchy concept does make sense and most of the examples of men getting the short end of the stick are a result of a) modern attempts to correct the historical injustice women have faced or b) generally having lower expectations of women than we do of men because of the sexist notion that women are less capable than men in general.

however i do think there is something to 'gender roles' that goes deeper than just cultural norms. i think the basic mating strategy that humans have adopted has gender roles built right into it. i can expand on that if need be but i'll leave it at that for now. long story short i think the "man works, woman tends to the kids" arrangement has a pretty sound biological basis to it and so the modern attempt to sort of transcend that dynamic is probably well-meaning but it is a lot trickier than i think a lot of progressives and feminists want to admit.

i don't call myself a feminist partially because of the image that feminists have in our society. basically they come across as whiney and annoying for the most part. i think part of that is a backlash against their ideals but another part of it is the fact that the movement is actually full of loud mouthed twats who look for any excuse to bitch and complain about every little thing.

plus, they hate a lot of the stuff i love. they hate hemingway cause he's 'sexist and homophobic.' i like hemingway cause his books are enjoyable to me. they hate misogynistic rap music cause it demeans women. i like misogynistic rap music because it's fun to listen to. they want language and art to be non-offensive and to make them and other minorities feel comfortable. i want them to man up and grow some thicker skin. basically i feel uncomfortable in the kind of PC world they want to create and they feel uncomfortable in my world. so even though i do think women should be paid a fair wage and **** like that, i can't be a feminist cause it just goes against my nature.

This had me nodding in agreement throughout. While I may disagree on some specifics I generally subscribe to your point of view.

~~John Wilkes Booth~~ · 01-13-2015, 07:39 PM

that's sorta surprising. i thought i was gonna get attacked for that ****. that's cool though

01-13-2015, 06:16 PM	#596 (permalink)
Oriphiel Ask me how! Join Date: Oct 2014 Location: The States Posts: 5,355	Heh, it's all good. Water under the bridge. A whole bunch of people are plugging right now, you should join us!

01-13-2015, 06:19 PM	#597 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	here's my basic stance. feel free to tear it apart, but you know i will probably have some ** to say back so yea. fair warning. i support the general idea of equal rights and i do think that generally speaking women get the short end of the stick. i think the whole patriarchy concept does make sense and most of the examples of men getting the short end of the stick are a result of a) modern attempts to correct the historical injustice women have faced or b) generally having lower expectations of women than we do of men because of the sexist notion that women are less capable than men in general. however i do think there is something to 'gender roles' that goes deeper than just cultural norms. i think the basic mating strategy that humans have adopted has gender roles built right into it. i can expand on that if need be but i'll leave it at that for now. long story short i think the "man works, woman tends to the kids" arrangement has a pretty sound biological basis to it and so the modern attempt to sort of transcend that dynamic is probably well-meaning but it is a lot trickier than i think a lot of progressives and feminists want to admit. i don't call myself a feminist partially because of the image that feminists have in our society. basically they come across as whiney and annoying for the most part. i think part of that is a backlash against their ideals but another part of it is the fact that the movement is actually full of loud mouthed twats who look for any excuse to bitch and complain about every little thing. plus, they hate a lot of the stuff i love. they hate hemingway cause he's 'sexist and homophobic.' i like hemingway cause his books are enjoyable to me. they hate misogynistic rap music cause it demeans women. i like misogynistic rap music because it's fun to listen to. they want language and art to be non-offensive and to make them and other minorities feel comfortable. i want them to man up and grow some thicker skin. basically i feel uncomfortable in the kind of PC world they want to create and they feel uncomfortable in my world. so even though i do think women should be paid a fair wage and ** like that, i can't be a feminist cause it just goes against my nature.

01-13-2015, 07:39 PM	#600 (permalink)
~~John Wilkes Booth~~ Account Disabled Join Date: Jul 2013 Posts: 2,235	that's sorta surprising. i thought i was gonna get attacked for that ****. that's cool though