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View Poll Results: Are Snowden and Manning heroes?
Yes 6 66.67%
No 3 33.33%
Voters: 9. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-30-2013, 02:16 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Nope. However I don't understand why people bother going into a thread saying they're not going to participate either. Why bother.
Exactly. Anyone is welcome to come here and debate any view expressed here. If you don't want to, you don't have to.
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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What worries me is tl;dr!
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Old 09-06-2013, 06:39 AM   #13 (permalink)
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What worries me about the NSA-leakers thing is not the spying programs themselves which are overblown by internet bloggers but it demonstrates that we are turning into a conspiracy-based society. Virtually everything we learned from the leakers we should have already known. It was truly old news. But people are acting like this is some explosive new info. Why is that? Well, it appears to me that the nature of the way of the info came out is what interests them, not the info itself. A news reporter or network uncovering the US's spying operation some 7 years ago didn't interest people because it wasn't leaked by a govt worker. Somehow it being leaked makes ALL the difference. Ah ha! PROOF! We caught 'em with the pants down! Unless news is released like a conspiracy has been uncovered, people don't care. Our lunatic fringe isn't a fringe anymore. We think in terms of conspiracies now.


i think its good to question things though i dont think that your main beef you have here. actually really interesting points by you that i agree with. instead of focusing on our conspiracy driven society i focus more on the way news and information is relayed to us (us being normal citizens). its a topic unto itself but the medias love and affection for conflict and sensationalism is out of this world. remember, there are like a handful of companies controlling the media in this country. manning and snowden wouldnt have been a huge deal had the media not covered it the way they did either. but the way that it came out was important. why?? because i think ppl wanna watch tv and have a sense of escapism and tv becomes entertainment to them that starts to blend with real life news and events. its juicier when its scandalous and even jucier when the maor networks are tellin you how scandalous it is over and over





Well, there ARE questions to be asked there, I think. Isn't it odd, for example, that two people up to their eyeballs in the JFK thing were also intimately involved in the UFO craze in the late 40s? Fred Crisman was believed by Jim Garrison to be one of the three hobos. While it's not likely that he was, it was interesting that his name came up. Why? Well, if you look up the Maury Island UFO story from '47, he was the supervisor of the guy on the salvager who saw the UFOs--and Crisman was military pilot in the OSS/CIA!! Look it up. Then there was the deputy director of the CIA, General Charles Cabell, who was fired by Kennedy after the Bay of Pigs fiasco, was also the guy who released the memos to military pilots authorizing the use of deadly force against UFOs back in '47 or '48! Weird that these two guys would be connected by two entirely different events some 20 years apart, isn't it? Then remember that Cabell's brother, Earle, was mayor of Dallas at the time JFK was killed. Strange, eh? Could all be coincidence but is it?

dude this is a whole other topic i could go on for days about but i am convinced the jfk assasination was a government ploy to frame oswald. lol i know its ironic given what ive said and what ive said i agreed with you on but thats the truth. ive done a lot of research on the topic over many years and i just personally dont believe the government in this case.


Buddy, if you only knew how easy it is. Let me give a scenario that's so easy, it's amazing it hasn't already happened: You can order anthrax from laboratories or go to Mexico and collect it yourself from cattle. You can bring it back to the US and set up an anthrax factory in your apartment. You can order the equipment off the internet, no questions asked. You can make an anthrax slurry, fill a super-soaker with it and cruise around areas with truck stops and what not looking for pigs, chickens, cows on their way to market. Pull up next to it and just start wetting them down with your slurry and then take off and find another. These animals are sold in huge sale barns and will come in contact with thousands of other animals spreading the disease. By the time they show symptoms, a lot of these animals will have already been sold and butchered and that meat on the shelves in stores. Thousands, hundreds of thousands of people could be infected before anyone figured it out.

twisted and impressive if u thought of that scenario by yourself. i am shocked something similar in terms of proportion hasnt happened yet. some guy just catching bad breaks for years from the government or whatever his situation, goin nuts and doin somethin drastic. i mean i guess it has happened but in small pockets. i just see our society goin down a self destructive path though and at some point theres goin to be an intersection where oppression metts downtrodden ppl, meets willingness for collateral damage, meets resources needed for somethin crazy. revolutions and uprisings usually always come from violence. but like i said, the same ppl who will say 'somethin needs to be done' will be the ppl vilifying whoever does it while sittin on their sofas watchin tv.



I only wish you didn't what you were talking about. It's probably going to happen.



I think America is hurtling towards another civil war. The Reds against the Blues. The hatreds are out of hand.

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Old 09-06-2013, 10:47 AM   #14 (permalink)
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i responded in bold

i think its good to question things though i dont think that your main beef you have here. actually really interesting points by you that i agree with. instead of focusing on our conspiracy driven society i focus more on the way news and information is relayed to us (us being normal citizens). its a topic unto itself but the medias love and affection for conflict and sensationalism is out of this world. remember, there are like a handful of companies controlling the media in this country. manning and snowden wouldnt have been a huge deal had the media not covered it the way they did either. but the way that it came out was important. why?? because i think ppl wanna watch tv and have a sense of escapism and tv becomes entertainment to them that starts to blend with real life news and events. its juicier when its scandalous and even jucier when the maor networks are tellin you how scandalous it is over and over
My point is, we already knew the govt was sifting through phone calls and emails since 2006. No one cared then. NOW it's this HUGE deal. Why? Yet people seem unaware that the govt has limits on what it can collect about you and yet business has NO SUCH LIMITS. Hence, internet companies know far more about you than the govt does and, worse, can openly share that info with ANYBODY.

A few weeks back, I typed my name and city into my browser just to see what would come up. Here's what came up: One website called "salespider.com" said, "[My correct name] is a person who lives at [my correct and current address]." That was the browser entry, you didn't even have to click on it to get that info.

I then typed that address into my browser and a website--may have been Zillow--told people what it cost, what I still owe on it, how long I lived there, whether my house was for sale and also gave a 3D streetview of my house. If someone was stalking me, he or she wouldn't have to leave their house to find me.

And this info is there for anybody to look through anytime they want to.

And people are ignoring that but raving about the NSA program which doesn't collect info that detailed and doesn't release what it does collect to anybody.

There was a case not long ago of some stupid kid who posted a vid of himself on youtube kicking a kitten. Within a few days, people got his name, his email address, his home address, his phone number and people started leaving him death threats. He want from laughing about what he did to worrying someone was going to do to him what he did to that kitten. Eventually, the cops arrested him and charged him with animal cruelty, as I recall.

If you think you can hide behind anonymity online, you're stupid. You have no anonymity online. If someone wants to track you down, they will. Whatever you do or wherever you go online, there's a record of it somewhere and someone out there knows exactly how to get it. And we give so much info about ourselves to complete strangers!!! I don't need to know your real name, I don't need to know where you work, I don't need to know what you look like, I don't need to know what street you live on or where you went to school. But I've gotten all of that from people I've never met in person. How many of them are also complaining about the NSA snooping?

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twisted and impressive if u thought of that scenario by yourself. i am shocked something similar in terms of proportion hasnt happened yet.
I didn't. I got it from a book a guy wrote about Plum Island, a govt germ warfare lab near Long Island that's now shutdown but still guarded. He interviewed govt scientists that used to work there. One of the scenarios they are trying to prevent or arrest quickly if it does happen is the one i gave you. It is one of the worst ones they have because they admit there is pretty much nothing that can be done. They too express surprise that it hasn't already happened and believe it is just a matter of time.

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some guy just catching bad breaks for years from the government or whatever his situation, goin nuts and doin somethin drastic. i mean i guess it has happened but in small pockets. i just see our society goin down a self destructive path though and at some point theres goin to be an intersection where oppression metts downtrodden ppl, meets willingness for collateral damage, meets resources needed for somethin crazy. revolutions and uprisings usually always come from violence. but like i said, the same ppl who will say 'somethin needs to be done' will be the ppl vilifying whoever does it while sittin on their sofas watchin tv.
The disturbing thing is, they don't really have to be downtrodden. They just have to believe they are. In my experience, the most dangerous element in the country BY FAR is the angry white male contingent. I run into these white guys who honestly believe they are the most discriminated against in the country. And yet these guys have houses, cars, families, good jobs, cabins up north, an arsenal of guns and ammo. flat screen HDTVs--what the hell are they complaining about??? How much more do they think they are entitled to and who do they think is keeping it from them?? Well...they think non-white people and blacks in particular have it all. No joke. That's why they HATE Obama with such passion. They may not admit it up front but anybody with a brain knows it's true. That's why they own so many guns. Not against the govt really (although it's easier to convince themselves it is when that govt is headed by a black man) but against the savage non-white hordes they are convinced will riot one day and turn society into Mad Max when, in fact, THEY are bringing it about through their delusional paranoia. Oklahoma City was one example of the AWM syndrome lashing out. I don't think that's the last of it. The next one will be worse.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:07 AM   #15 (permalink)
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well partly, i dont think many ppl knew what was goin on in 2006. i dont think the majority of ppl knew anything like that was happening until recently. i do think its dumb that ppl put so much online so its kinda weird they would be so complaining about this. but its like that video of the guy who videotapes random ppl on the sidewalk. the ppl always get pissed, but we are all on camera almost anywhere we go

i agree ppl in that case would just have to believe they are downtrodden and i think anyone makin a drastic move like that would likely be a white male, probably in their 20s, bad childhood yada yada yada. i can almost paint the picture perfectly in my head. the big screens and the lifted new fords and the weekend spa retreats will keep the guys you are talkin about away from any major move.

i do think youre wrong about the obama stuff though. tons and tons of white liberals out there and i dont think anyone has guns because of obama. theres solid reasons to have guns.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:35 AM   #16 (permalink)
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well partly, i dont think many ppl knew what was goin on in 2006. i dont think the majority of ppl knew anything like that was happening until recently. i do think its dumb that ppl put so much online so its kinda weird they would be so complaining about this. but its like that video of the guy who videotapes random ppl on the sidewalk. the ppl always get pissed, but we are all on camera almost anywhere we go
People knew what was going on back then. They knew the moment that the Patriot Act was brought up.
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IMO I don't know jack-**** though so don't listen to me.
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The problem is that most police officers in America are psychopaths.
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You're a terrible dictionary.
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:38 AM   #17 (permalink)
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People knew what was going on back then. They knew the moment that the Patriot Act was brought up.
i doubt it. i bet if you polled the nation over half of it would have no idea
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Old 09-06-2013, 11:39 AM   #18 (permalink)
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i doubt it. i bet if you polled the nation over half of it would have no idea
I wonder what they think the Patriot Act is and why Bush helped put it in place.
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IMO I don't know jack-**** though so don't listen to me.
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The problem is that most police officers in America are psychopaths.
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You're a terrible dictionary.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:37 PM   #19 (permalink)
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i do think youre wrong about the obama stuff though. tons and tons of white liberals out there and i dont think anyone has guns because of obama.
Where have you been for the last six years? Gun sales under Obama are out of this world.

Gun Sales Soar During Obama’s First Term: ‘He Is the Best Thing That Ever Happened to the Firearm Industry’ | TheBlaze.com

Gun Sales at Record High: Sales Soar Over Fear of the Black President

Gun Purchases Under Obama's Presidency Four Times The Number Of Babies Born

Number Of Gun Dealers Increased By 3000 Under Obama | ThinkProgress

Obama's re-election drives gun sales - Nov. 9, 2012

Anti-Gun Debate May Be Best Thing For Firearm Industry Since Obama's Election - Forbes

After the Obama Surge: A New Rush on Gun Stores - Corporate Intelligence - WSJ

Barack Obama, Gun Salesman of the Year - Bloomberg

Gun industry thrives under Obama administration despite warnings - NY Daily News

Still not convinced?

-There are ~14,869 more gun stores in America than grocery stores. Specifically, there are 51,438 gun retailers and 36,536 grocery stores.
There are almost as many gun dealers in America as gas stations. There are a total of 129,817 gun dealers in the country, which include retail stores (51,438), "collectors" (61,562), pawn shops (7,356), and importers and manufacturers. Meanwhile, there are 143,849 gas stations.
-There are more than twice as many gun stores in America as McDonalds restaurants. There are only 14,098 McDonalds.
-American gun companies made 5.5 million new guns in 2010 and 95% of them were sold to Americans.
-These ~5 million guns weren't nearly enough to satisfy American demand for guns in 2010, so an additional 3.3 million guns were imported.
-There were 16.5 million background checks for gun purchases in 2010. You can get a gun unless you have a criminal record or are evidently insane.

Read more: More Gun Stores In America Than Grocery Stores - Business Insider

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theres solid reasons to have guns.
Never said otherwise. My question is, how many do you need? I know guys with 20 guns in their houses. Now what are you going to do with 20 guns that you can't do with 2?

My father had two. An old bolt action rifle and a carbine. That was it. He got rid of them when he caught me and my kid brother playing with the live ammo. He never owned a handgun but I could bend on that. I could see having one--not 10.

And assault rifles--forget it. No reason to have one--none. Unless you're taking out an advancing army these are pointlessly dangerous weapons have in your house. If you can't hunt or defend your home except with an assault rifle, you are the very person who should not be allowed to own firearms. Yet I know a guy who now wants an AR-15 because he thinks they're cool since the Sandy Hook thing. Admits he doesn't need one, just wants one.

And the funniest thing for me is that the NRA apparently has a huge database of gun-owners. The people most vocal about defending ourselves from the intrusive govt has a record on you if you own a gun.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:47 PM   #20 (permalink)
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ok maybe we are viewing it differently, i thought you meant ppl were buyin guns because of obama in the sense that they were scared of obama leading some type of tyranny against the people and they would have to defend themselves (maybe that is what u are sayin). seems to me like gun ownership increased because obama was makin noise about regulating them. my gun collector friend sold 3 of his 4 AR-15s for double what he paid for them because ppl were scared of what laws obama would try to get through. he has probably 40 guns and i agree its stupid but its his main hobby and we go to the range sometimes to shoot all his different guns.
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