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I really didnt though. Please wuote the post where I attacked you personally and was not addressing a broader point. There is obviously a break down in communication, i only ad hominem elph.
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Like your hilariously inaccurate perception of DWV Quote:
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It's a multi-faceted issue, and personal responsibility is one of many. Well, really we should discuss your usage of the word poverty, before I can stand behind that statement. If you're talking about the systematic history of inner city poverty I agree, but when we get into things like middle class families going bankrupt and unreasonable personal debt, I think my point holds true.
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Can we all at least agree on the following:
1. Legal legistlations that allow the rich to not have to play fair are bad. 2. All poor people born into poverty simply can't bust their butts and, "poof" escape poverty. It's a shame a lot of folks think this way. You should be ashamed. 3. The rich and and finacially successful people are either intolerent, ignorant, or outright arrogant about the less fortunate in this country, and everything that led up to that being the norm. 4. ALL politicians suck. Pick your battles. |
I don't think I've ever said anything that would make you think I didn't agree with those things. Though I'm somewhat hesitant to generalize as broadly as you did in point 3, I believe a majority fit that description.
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I agree on 1 and 4 for sure. I agree with number 2 except for the "you should be ashamed part" because I have yet to see anybody post or imply that stance. I don't agree on number 3 because it's too black and white and pretty obviously false even though there is a lot of validity to that sentiment.
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Actually it is and you did not accurately describe my position. You seem to think that advocating for taking responsibility is the only thing i believe in. I thought i made that clear maybe you didnt read the entirety of the discussion or i did a poor job explaining (half my comments were half assed responses to elph so i could see how there might be confusion).
Edit: i can reitterate tomorrow, but tbh im in a pissy mood and on my phone so i really dont have the motivation to give you a better answer atm. |
So instead of trying to fix the current safety nets that are in place to reduce the minor level of abuse that takes place. What do you propose be done instead?
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Why do you think it needs to be instead of? Along side of is more like it. Also see my edit.
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Okay np.
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To paraphrase: "I fought and worked through it. Everyone who can't do the same is a loser and doesn't deserve any help or financial assistance, because they're a loser." |
I love how you turned you asking me what real life experience I had to overcome into me using them as the reason for my position. Stop twisting my words please, try reading them. I didn't bring that shit up until you asked a question about my personal life.
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I'm going to start a GoFundMe page to pay for me traveling to Washington so I can punch Jeffery Lord's face. My god. Such a ****ing dick.
As of this moment, based on the crap he just spewed on TV, he's my most hated person on the planet. Well, number 2 behind the young guy in North Korea with the funny hair. |
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I would if I was... Did you even read the examples I gave of things I'm okay supporting vs not supporting?
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Again, my mind is blown with you lately. You are no longer cool. I'm sure you don't give a **** though. |
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Please bold the points where I'm taking a position on any of the things youre accusing me of. |
Chula baby....gotta stop putting words in people's mouths. It'll give the rest of MusicBanter the impression you've got your own version of McCarthyism going on internally.
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TFW you do your best to answer peoples questions, but they can't be bothered to return the courtesy.
You know what's really not cool? Your eagerness to insult me instead of have a discussion. You're right though, I don't give a fuck what you think of me, what I care about is you(and anyone else) making a rational argument that might enlighten me. I participate to learn and understand(and bust on elph), if you have nothing to offer you're really no use to me in this thread. |
I don't get your example of middle class family going bankrupt. What are you basing this scenario off of?
When I think of them going bankrupt I relate that to being laid off and unable to find adequate employment while burning through savings just to keep their head above water. |
In my experience people tend to have the mentality of "you only live once, f*ck savings" and money burns a hole in their pocket. The point really goes hand in hand with the personal debt example and living beyond your means. I'm sorry, but if you can't prioritize bills over fun when you don't have the money for both without wracking up credit card debt, then that's really not anyone elses problem to solve but your own. That is NOT why these government support systems are in place.
Do you care to touch on the topic we were discussing or do you understand how you misrepresented my position? Edit: If you don't think you did misrepresent please point out where, as I asked Chula to do, so we can actually talk about it. |
This example and your welfare one seems like you are basing it off on anecdotes that piss you off from personal experience with knowing people in those situations. I agree with you to an extent but people make mistakes and they don't deserve to be starving and homeless because they fucked up.
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Which brings us back to the original comment I made that kicked this whole thing off (as I already admitted I stated in a rather pissy way towards Chula/Elph because they seem to think the government and the rich should be responsible for everything we screw up. Then, Chula took it as a personal attack).
Where do you draw the line? At what point should people be held accountable for the fuck ups THEY created? It is unreasonable to expect the government to fix ALL our problems, there has to be some accountability. |
Why is it unreasonable when you are constantly paying into the system through taxes? I don't feel like there is a line or that one needs to exist especially when you are paying into said system all your life.
Where do you think the line should be drawn and what do you think should be done with the people that have crossed said line? Let them suffer and die? |
Why isn't it unreasonable? You're not paying into those system so you can be some jerkoff that can make every bad decision you want and be carried. As I already said:
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Edit: Those taxes they are paying are being used for things they are a part of. You sound like my parents who complain they have to pay taxes that go towards the public school even though they dont use it, completely ignoring the fact they benefitted from the same tax when they were in school. As for your second question, i thought i made it clear where i draw the line. If youre in a position to better your situation and do not do it that is where the line gets drawn (assuming of course the opportunity is legal, moral, constitutional, etc.). Nothing gets "done" to those people. I dont have all the answers and the Frown quote above highlights one of the major difficulties we have to overcome. As for dying? Thats a bit hyperbolic dont you think? (1) i am all for universal healthcare (2) if dying isnt motivation to improve your situation then what is? If you care that little about your life then bailing you out probably wont change that. |
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I am not like your parents at all. I know those type of people that want to dedicate where tax money is spent and whom it goes to which sounds exactly like what you are saying. You are trying to say who does and doesn't deserve your tax dollars. I feel like you are under the assumption that people can just forever live off Welfare without doing anything. Case workers are quick to cut people off for the slightest things. Not actively looking for work or attending the work sites that they get sent to. Not filling out certain paperwork in time. Social workers feel like they are the gate keepers to people's lives and the minute they don't feel like the person deserves it or they are committing fraud they get cut off. They have your same mentality. There isn't anything wrong with that because those benefits are meant to be temporary. |
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6. Lack of financial priorities Theres not only 4 factors, but youd sooner die than ever admit we can be part of our own problems. Held accountable = responsible for solving their problems without goverment assistance. |
Then they can't, and secondary sources like non-profit, family, go fund me, and volunteer organizations step in. Expecting the government to do it all is not realistic and quite unfair/entitled.
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I'm not assuming anything about welfare, it was just an example. The bolded seems contradictory, youre arguing against my mentality and then saying there isn't anything wrong with it. Which is it? |
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If you say so.
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Why do unemployment rates go dramatically up in times of crisis? Is it because people make bad personal financial choices en masse? No, it's because their employers sack them when their company goes bad. For many people it's very hard to find work after that, so of course they will need assistance benefits. This is not an agreeable situation - you merely receive a subsistence wage, which impels you to plan your expenses every month very carefully.
On the people who make bad decisions - as if everybody else make good decisions all the time - why should they not be allowed benefits? Assistance is absolutely essential when one can't find work. And shouldn't people be able to get another chance, even if they are partly responsible for their situations? Being unemployed and on benefits is punishment enough by itself. Besides, welfare administrations already spend too much time and resources on finding out who qualifies benefits - let's not complicate it further. |
DWV, statements like these are what cause me doubt.
1. I'm not responsible for other people screwing up - assumes everyone in need is there because they messed up. 2. It's not my fault if you can't make better decisions to improve your situation - assumes everyone in dire straights are there because of bad decision making. 3. People in financial trouble are there because they overspent their means - more assuming. You seem to only want to focus on people who **** up, and therefore it's not the goverment's responsibility to help them. In the past few pages I haven't seen you mention anything in regards to those who end up in tough shape simply because of a bad luck of the draw. Or how, we as a society, are responsible to help them out via social programs and the taxes we pay to support them. Your overall negativity towards anyone who requires assistance over the course of the discussion is what turns me off. You need help? It's your own damn fault. :( |
1. I already distinguished between people creating problems vs uncontrollable circumstances.
2. I already admitted not everyone is in bad positions because of poor decision making and that we SHOULD help them.. ie - being born into it, unplanned pregnancy, etc 3. I already said it's one of MANY problems that CAN be a factor. Seriously, do you even read my posts or just browse them in a fit of rage and miss all the points? I don't have negative views of people who need assistance, I have negative views towards those who don't even try to better their position(WHEN POSSIBLE, another point I covered) when the problem is one they created. At least you managed to not throw insults this time around. |
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It's the main overall tone. Yes you've snuck in some of those things but your main tone is one of almost resentment to anyone who has to lean on the government.
And it's not rage. Maybe a bit of alcohol haze, but not rage. |
Almost resentment, isn't resentment, and yes there is a tone, because I'm annoyed that we grow up learning that we have to take responsibility for our screw ups... Being grounded, bad grades in school, parent lectures, etc and then we turn into adults and it's all thrown out the window? No, I'm sorry, that's just not how life works, you don't get a free pass because the government offers assistance and you don't have parents to coddle you.
It's also not ANYONE who has to lean on the government it's a very specific group of do nothings. Maybe, it's not specific, but it's the attitude of these people that I have a problem with. |
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