Perfect example of what I'm talking about.

Force people to look for a job of the want assistance.

So are you ever going to make a point as to why I should think differently or are you just going to keep complaining about my position and not try to show me why it's a poor one to hold?

I get that your disappointed or annoyed with me for thinking differently, I really don't care. Change my mind, present examples, provide counter points.. Demonstrate how it's good for society as a whole to be treated like children and never strive to improve problems through action.

More than id like to admit.

And once again.

Stop painting with a broad brush.

My mentally ill 28 year old son gets $200 a month in food stamps because he's incapable of holding down a steady job due to his illness. Should he just suck it up and find away to ignore the demons in his brain?

My bread winning dad ran out on my mom when her kids were 1, 3, and 5 years old. She wasn't able to make ends meet working a job and having to pay for childcare so she could work, so she had to go on welfare. Explain what kind of action she should have taken to keep her kids fed.

Agree 100%, I was just adding the economic side to the equation. Unnecessary testing and screening is a waste of time and resources as well as humiliating and moralizing.

I dont have a problem with either of those examples receiving gov assistance.

Regardless, substance dependence shouldn't make you less eligible for benefits.

That's how it's done most places, I reckon. It's how it works in Norway, at least.

DWV, my problem here is that you brought up personal choices as a factor of seemingly macroeconomically significanct factor for why people are unemployed/on benefits/experienceing hardships. I don't see what that brings to the discussion apart from implying that people shouldn't receive benefits if their situation is caused by bad decision-making - and who's supposed to be the judge of that? Bureaucrats?

Fixation on personal decision-making is for the neoliberals who cut in out welfare, admittedly to create "incentives" to work.

I don't know about the US, but in Norway there are many able-bodied people receiving unemployment benefits due to transitional unemployment.

I already agreed with this in the first sentence you decided to remove from the quote.


I'm getting sick of rehashing the same points everytime someone new enters the discussion. Go back 10 or so pages and read.

Here: http://www.musicbanter.com/current-e...ml#post1828726

Examples? We're talking about human beings here.

You do realize that these two "examples" are representative of a large number of people relying on social programs. I get that you are angry about the leeches that game the system, but you should be a bit more sensitive about the way you are expressing things.

Then maybe re-think your approach because again, your overall tone on the subject is judemental and harsh. And even though you toss in a few nuggets of compassion now and then they are getting completely overshadowed.

****, I misread your post. Sorry about that.

I intentionally leave emotion out, I'm trying to be as objective and rational as possible (believe it or not that's how you solve problems).

My approach has nothing to do with people joining mid conversation and missing points I've already covered, lol.

Of all the people who disagree with me you are the only one yet to actually say anything, Briks has already contributed more in two posts than you have in 10 pages, elph and I found some areas where we agreed, and DJ was nice to talk to (still waiting to hear back).. When are you going to actually make a post worth considering?

Gotta agree. We shouldn't worry too much about "lazy" people or people who make bad decisions. That leads to pointing fingers at a minority and ruins social security for everyone. Politicians fabricate stories to justify welfare cuts. Let's not support their narrative.

And now my point flies a mile over your head.

You type 100 words and 90% of them come across as crass. Yet the people joining in mid conversation are suppose to focus on the other 10%?????

:thumb:

You read 100 words and 90% of them are misunderstood, quoted, and misrepresented.

http://www.musicbanter.com/1829508-post5042.html

I guess personal experience doesn't count unless you were fortunate enough to pull yourself out of a gutter. Nice DWV. You ****ing rule as far as this discussion goes.

It's your own words. I didn't type them. I, and others, are just taking them at face value.

I gave multiple examples prior to that post on how I would be okay supporting people in those kinds of situations.. You just chose to overlook it because you were too busy being insulted by my honesty.

Edit: I'm going to stop responding to you now. If you have something you actually want to have a back and fourth discussion about I'll be happy to rejoin in the conversation. This has devolved quite rapidly into a childlike argument, and I'm not interested in entertaining you.

I meant you misunderstand them, quote them, and then strawmen them.

DWV takes his broad brush and runs home. :D

Nah bro, my opinions are punk af.

The phrase strawman has become the easiest, most convenient word in the English language to utilize to basically go "Nah Nah Nah Nah, I know you are but what am I?"

It should simply be obsoleted.

Example: I'm losing an argument. Accuse the other guy of using strawman points. Yay, now I'm winning!!

Weak DWV. Very weak.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/ - You misrepresented my argument and then argued against your misrepresentation.. Would you rather me call you retarded?

http://s2.quickmeme.com/img/01/01653...4b3f5836e0.jpg

I was supposed too, but I couldn't resist using that epic Billy Madison quote.. I'm happy to continue insulting you though elph. It's always a pleasure :D

So much for being on ignore. I knew he couldn't resist.

You're resorting to grade school tactics now. It's almost getting embarrassing.

I've made a lot of valid points in this thread. Brought up real world personal expereince. And pointed out your preconception of painting most everyone on government assistance as somehow being losers. You've made the same types of broad brush statements over and over again - displaying your predudice, and cherry picking the **** out of the posts of people who are callng you out on your overall tone on the subject.

Yet I'm accused of adding nothing to the discussion. Don't agree with me = nothing. Check.

Again, DWV, you ****ing rule this thread dude. Carry on.

You're not on ignore, I don't use that feature. I'm just not going to engage in anymore bickering.

You guys are making the assumption that most people getting assistance are people that need it. When a lot of us have witnessed plenty of people that do take advantage of it because they are too lazy to get a job.

My father collected government assistance while doing side jobs that he never paid taxes on.

My sister collected government assistance even though her husband who was fully capable of getting a job never looked for a job. Even used my name which I saw nothing of even though I was literally starving at the time.

My friends mom has collected government assistance her whole entire life and has never worked or even looked for a job. She did go to college though. Payed for by the government as well.

I have another friend who collected government assistance with out ever looking for a job. He sold drugs instead. Oh, and his mom would send him a couple thousand dollars and he'd money slap people with it.

The only other person I know that gets government assistance is my friend who has an extreme case of narcolepsy that prevents him from working and they only give him assistance if he's taking college classes.

The only case I can make for the people that don't need is most of the time they have kids and I don't think the children should starve because of a lazy parent.

So according to my personal experience the statistics show that there are extreme flaws in how we do government assistance. I know that's not reliable, but I highly doubt anybody has the real numbers because any collected data is not going to factor in the amount of people that are getting away lying and cheating the system or receiving it even though they don't need it. It can't.

That is why there is a stigma. Too many people personally know somebody that sits on there ass and collects welfare that doesn't need it while they work their ass off just to make the same amount. Don't ignore this or dismiss is it. Put your arrogance away and think about it.

Edit: The most messed up thing is my dad received assistance because they were under the impression that he couldn't work because of his back while he was doing labor jobs that completely contradicts that. My brothers wife who has severe cerebral palsy to the point where she can hardly walk can't receive any government assistance because she's proven she can work by holding down a call center job for 7 years.

The role of government in people's lives is never going to be something all people agree upon unilaterally. Geography and circumstances differ too much between individuals to ever achieve consensus. Hence all this heated argument.

Maybe there will be a good excuse someday as mankind gets closer to the singularity (the elimination of most inhibiting factors right now in society thanks to stuff like CRISPR and the advancement of AI) to downsize the role government tends to play in our lives.

Until then though, whether you realize it or not, you are at the government's mercy for better or for worse. :laughing:

I just hate when that stigma finds a way to influence government to pass laws that **** people who honestly need it. Ever been behind someone in a supermarket line who looks absolutely disgusted and appalled having to pay for their food with food stamps? I've never seen people look so defleated. Don't lump them in with any of your narrative.

On one hand I want to :clap: and on the other hand I want to say DUH!

Fixing all of this is basically impossible in our current OVERALL situation.

Yeah, that's very true. I don't think government assistance has been big enough of a problem for us to stress about as much as we do. There are much more expensive wastes of money. Like those tax loopholes Trump promised to fix and I haven't heard anything about since he became president.

Nuance isn't his thing, give it up. Trying to explain it to him is just going to make him angrier. He's repeatedly made it apparent that he cannot approach a discussion like an adult or even as a mentally stable person. Its Roxy Part II.

Nobody is lumping them together though. We've all made a clear distinction between the two. If you really look at it, we all want the same thing. The leaches to quit leaching and the people who really need it to get it. How we fix it is the problem. Or maybe we just have to deal with the fact that it's always going to be imperfect and move on.

Seriously? Google "pot calling kettle black".

Like in my last post, no easy solution. Just wish folks here could find a way to not lump the truly needy and the leeches into the same off the cuff comments.

Frown. Once again, ..................

Oh **** it. I'll never understand how you achieved mod status. Who makes these decisions? What are they based on? Is this some sort of secret society? Do the rest of the forum membors get a say? If not, why not?

What percentage of members have to speak up about a "nonimated" mod as being unworthy (a ****ing dick) before the secret society take notice?

What's the ****ing executive process around here?

I'm pretty sick of an official MB moderator slinging pompous and pretensious **** at me over and over again. Holding the title, shouldn't you be above it?

No, because Frown is typically a fair and trustworthy moderator. His personality isn't much of a factor and he shouldn't have to hinder it for the sake of a facade.

Are you serious? Facade? Please explain.

He comes at me all the time. Using his bias as an excuse.

Frownland deflects and insults Chula for his opinions, again in 5... 4... 3....

I'm tired.

Go take a nap. I really don't give a **** dude.

You're saying he should censor his thoughts because it makes him look like he's unworthy of being a mod even though his track record as a mod has been fair.

His opinions, condescension and insults, which most people on here do including you, have nothing to do with his modding ability. It only makes it look like he's a terrible mod when he's not.

I mean, unless there is some kind of incident I don't know about.

I have the same problem too sometimes.

I leave and he finds someone new to bicker with? Slut.

DWV, I come at you very rarely. Can only think of maybe a few times. Frowny is a constant target - dude just loves picking at my scabs and it really pisses me off.

I'll take slut as a compliment at this time of the day (almost 11:00 PST).

In other news:

Making America Great Again!