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DwnWthVwls 03-18-2017 07:13 PM

Yeh, it wasn't meant to argue your point or anything.. just something interesting I found and felt like adding on.

Edit: the article was just posted to show the origin of DJs chart, nothing more.

DwnWthVwls 03-18-2017 07:15 PM

Here is the article written by the charts creator: The Reasoning and Methodology Behind The Chart – All Generalizations are False, if you feel like reading it.

elphenor 03-18-2017 07:59 PM

the tldr of it is that we study political spectrums through relative means there is no objective center

I might say Norway is the mid point between socialism and capitalism for example while another will say it's the US

so if you make a statement like "CNN is left wing" you have to tell me compared to what

Anteater 03-18-2017 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1814895)
He blamed them for being a joke network

Trump gets his news from them very seriously and then says "oh well Fox news said it"

How do you not see that these things could not be more different

As for the second half of this steaming pile, I'm out of ways to explain that the news isn't left you're just right wing

Maybe you just don't understand the difference between someone who is specifically liberal and someone who is more conservative?

https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/con...beral-beliefs/

Going by this, I'm centrist with a conservative bent. But that makes sense considering I identify as a Libertarian.

And as I've told you in the past: follow the money. Look at the parent companies of the major news organizations and where they donated. Very easy to see just how many more of them are liberal overall. I'm not wrong: you just never bothered to look.

OccultHawk 03-19-2017 06:28 AM

Quote:

Going by this, I'm centrist with a conservative bent. But that makes sense considering I identify as a Libertarian.
The Libertarian Party could've at least waited until it picked up a little steam before it watered down into mainstream bull****. Even the alternatives are no longer alternatives.

Anteater 03-19-2017 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OccultHawk (Post 1814967)
The Libertarian Party could've at least waited until it picked up a little steam before it watered down into mainstream bull****. Even the alternatives are no longer alternatives.

Why are you talking about politics like you'd talk about black metal lulz. The biggest problem IN politics right now is we don't have enough Libertarians in any position that actually matters. Hyper-polarization is why nothing gets done (since everybody hates each other), combined with both the Democrats and Republicans insatiable greed for money. We need a good third party to go mainstream in order to fight problems like this.

elphenor 03-19-2017 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814957)
Maybe you just don't understand the difference between someone who is specifically liberal and someone who is more conservative?

https://www.studentnewsdaily.com/con...beral-beliefs/

Going by this, I'm centrist with a conservative bent. But that makes sense considering I identify as a Libertarian.

And as I've told you in the past: follow the money. Look at the parent companies of the major news organizations and where they donated. Very easy to see just how many more of them are liberal overall. I'm not wrong: you just never bothered to look.

Your expressed beliefs put you far on the right economically speaking as compared to the beliefs of the majority of the Democratic world

In fact, you are right wing just by American standards, centrist my ass


I don't know your stances on social issues

elphenor 03-19-2017 08:49 AM

Majority of Americans regardless of affiliation are for minimum wage increases

The centrist position in the US is a minimum wage increase

A leftist position would be a large increase and the right position is no increase at all (again in the US)

This is how the concept of overton window works

Anteater 03-19-2017 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elphenor (Post 1814980)
Your expressed beliefs put you far on the right economically speaking as compared to the beliefs of the majority of the Democratic world

In fact, you are right wing just by American standards, centrist my ass


I don't know your stances on social issues

Maybe you'll eventually figure it out when you've lived a little longer, but the more time you spend dealing with government (which I have), the more conservative you become. I was far left in high school through college. Once I got out into the real world and actually started running into government through my business, I became convinced (if nothing else) that they're far more incompetent than you could ever dream of. I have absolutely no faith at this point that the government will ever be able to efficiently create the kind of overarching social safety net the left would like to see while still affording Americans the autonomy that the right would like to see. Conservatives understand this, which is why they want the federal government to take a lesser role in the first place.

Social issues I'm still more left than right, since at the end of the day the government does need to take a prominent role of some kind in providing for the people. Whether or not those ideals actually WORK in reality, however, is the million dollar question. Europe, after all, still has it's fair share of problems and they're supposedly lightyears ahead of us when it comes to welfare.

The one thing I can tell you for sure is Communism will never work. Ever. :p:

Frownland 03-19-2017 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814986)
Maybe you'll eventually figure it out when you've lived a little longer, but the more time you spend dealing with government (which I have), the more conservative you become.

This is hands down my least favourite cliche ftr.

You're gonna give yourself carpal tunnel if you keep patting yourself on the back like that man.

Anteater 03-19-2017 09:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1814989)
This is hands down my least favourite cliche ftr.

You're gonna give yourself carpal tunnel if you keep patting yourself on the back like that man.

Hey, all I can do is speak from experience. If you want to be condescending, try stepping into my shoes for a day or two. :thumb:

Frownland 03-19-2017 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814990)
Hey, all I can do is speak from experience. If you want to be condescending, try stepping into my shoes for a day or two. :thumb:

I'm condescending and open minded how about that

Anteater 03-19-2017 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1814991)
I'm condescending and open minded how about that

Or, you know, you could try a counter argument. Or something with substance. Maybe I'm asking a bit much? :D

OccultHawk 03-19-2017 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814978)
Why are you talking about politics like you'd talk about black metal lulz. The biggest problem IN politics right now is we don't have enough Libertarians in any position that actually matters. Hyper-polarization is why nothing gets done (since everybody hates each other), combined with both the Democrats and Republicans insatiable greed for money. We need a good third party to go mainstream in order to fight problems like this.

Polarization gets nothing done and centrists by definition want to keep things the same. What good is a third party if it only wants to continue with what's already being done?

Frownland 03-19-2017 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814992)
Or, you know, you could try a counter argument. Or something with substance. Maybe I'm asking a bit much? :D

To what, the cliche? My counter argument is the loads of people who deal with the government who think that logical liberal solutions still work.

This may not pertain to you, but I think that a lot of construct a bogeyman view of the government because they only associate with the government when they're forced to, and nobody likes that. Some people only see the negative parts that affect their lives and take a lot of the positive things for granted. Food for thought.

OccultHawk 03-19-2017 09:24 AM

Quote:

Maybe you'll eventually figure it out when you've lived a little longer, but the more time you spend dealing with government (which I have), the more conservative you become.
The older I get the more I hate capitalism and America's disgusting bull**** oligarchy.

Janszoon 03-19-2017 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814986)
Maybe when you grow up someday you'll figure it out, but the more time you spend dealing with government (which I have), the more conservative you become. I was far left in high school through college. Once I got out into the real world and actually started running into government through my business, I became convinced (if nothing else) that they're far more incompetent than you could ever dream of. I have absolutely no faith in this point that the government will ever be able to efficiently create the kind of overarching social safety net the left would like to see while still affording Americans the autonomy that the right would like to see.

It's hilarious when people speak as if their experience is the universal human experience. Funny thing, I've grown more left wing as I've gotten older. I was always skeptical of government, but it took working in the corporate world for me to understand that corporations—contrary to the fantasy often peddled in the US—are generally disorganized, bureaucratic garbage dumps, where the people in charge are rarely the best and brightest and are far more often the best schmoozers or the biggest assholes. I also grew to understand that the prevailing corporate philosophy of perpetual growth is not only unsustainable but is actually a huge problem because it compels companies screw over workers, screw over any other people who get in their way, and degrade the environment. I've come to realize that government is one of the only even remotely effective levers we have against corporate misbehavior. Beyond that, just from living in the "real world", I've come to understand that the American right wing's supposed support of individual rights is bullshit.

Anteater 03-19-2017 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1814997)
It's hilarious when people speak as if their experience is the universal human experience. Funny thing, I've grown more left wing as I've gotten older. I was always skeptical of government, but it took working in the corporate world for me to understand that corporations—contrary to the fantasy often peddled in the US—are generally disorganized, bureaucratic garbage dumps, where the people in charge are rarely the best and brightest and are far more often the best schmoozers or the biggest assholes. I also grew to understand that the prevailing corporate philosophy of perpetual growth is not only unsustainable but is actually a huge problem because it compels companies screw over workers, screw over any other people who get in their way, and degrade the environment. I've come to realize that government is one of the only even remotely effective levers we have against corporate misbehavior. Beyond that, just from living in the "real world", I've come to understand that the American right wing's supposed support of individual rights is bullshit.

See, that wasn't so hard. If Janszoon can do it, anyone can!

At least you have the common sense to recognize that not all corporations are as you describe. Still doesn't provide a strong argument against the problems I've already illustrated about government though. It's like you read two sentences of my post and then went off on a tangent about corporations.

See, I can decide whether or not I want to buy from a company. I don't get a say in how my taxes are used but the government takes it anyway (state and federal alike). Hence, from my perspective, the government has always been worse than any company and far scarier. Also, most of your criticisms about the corporate world apply to government, so if your goal was to support my argument then you hit the jackpot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1814994)
To what, the cliche? My counter argument is the loads of people who deal with the government who think that logical liberal solutions still work.

This may not pertain to you, but I think that a lot of construct a bogeyman view of the government because they only associate with the government when they're forced to, and nobody likes that. Some people only see the negative parts that affect their lives and take a lot of the positive things for granted. Food for thought.

People can whine about the corporate world, but if the government has ever been able to do anything efficiently other than tax the living **** out of people and pay their employees on time, I've never seen it. Everything people hate about the corporate world - multiply it and you have the U.S. government.

DwnWthVwls 03-19-2017 10:07 AM

They go to war and rebuild nations like a boss. :D

djchameleon 03-19-2017 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815005)
People can whine about the corporate world, but if the government has ever been able to do anything efficiently other than tax the living **** out of people and pay their employees on time, I've never seen it.

They restrict corporations pretty well through regulations that's why Trump is pushing so hard to get rid of them. He has this great idea of introducing one regulation and getting rid of two others or some crap like that. Mostly to benefit lobbyists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1815006)
They go to war and sell weapons to their enemies like a boss. :D

Fixed that for you.

Lisnaholic 03-19-2017 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1814997)
It's hilarious when people speak as if their experience is the universal human experience. Funny thing, I've grown more left wing as I've gotten older. I was always skeptical of government, but it took working in the corporate world for me to understand that corporations—contrary to the fantasy often peddled in the US—are generally disorganized, bureaucratic garbage dumps, where the people in charge are rarely the best and brightest and are far more often the best schmoozers or the biggest assholes. I also grew to understand that the prevailing corporate philosophy of perpetual growth is not only unsustainable but is actually a huge problem because it compels companies screw over workers, screw over any other people who get in their way, and degrade the environment. I've come to realize that government is one of the only even remotely effective levers we have against corporate misbehavior. Beyond that, just from living in the "real world", I've come to understand that the American right wing's supposed support of individual rights is bullshit.

:clap:

The bit in bold is a fundamental truth that usually gets ignored in the constant clamour for growth. Although this is quite an old clip, the analysis is good and clear, for example at 1:10:"You cannot run a linear system on a finite planet indefinitely"


Frownland 03-19-2017 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815005)

See, I can decide whether or not I want to buy from a company. I don't get a say in how my taxes are used but the government takes it anyway (state and federal alike). Hence, from my perspective, the government has always been worse than any company.

https://media2.giphy.com/media/LyJ6KPlrFdKnK/giphy.gif

Quote:

People can whine about the corporate world, but if the government has ever been able to do anything efficiently other than tax the living **** out of people and pay their employees on time, I've never seen it. Everything people hate about the corporate world - multiply it and you have the U.S. government.
Interesting. Taxing people and paying people on time is way less intrusion from the government than the one in my country. What's it like?

DwnWthVwls 03-19-2017 10:21 AM

@Ant

^Frown's first quote: I'm not sure if you are being deliberately dense or you're just naive, but not everyone has the option to vote with their dollar.

Anteater 03-19-2017 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1815018)
Interesting. Taxing people and paying people on time is way less intrusion from the government than the one in my country. What's it like?

If you don't see the irony of a government that is efficient about taking your money and paying it's bureaucrats but bungles everything else that matters, then I'll just leave that on the table to speak for itself.

Oh wait, they're good at illegally spying on the the population too. Almost forgot that one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1815022)
@Ant

^Frown's first quote: I'm not sure if you are being deliberately dense or you're just naive, but not everyone has the option to vote with their dollar.

In the U.S. all you can do IS vote with your dollar pretty much. Not on everything, but in most things it's all you've got. Rich and poor alike.

djchameleon 03-19-2017 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815025)

Oh wait, they're good at legally spying on the the population too. Almost forgot that one.

I think that's what you meant.

It has been legal to do that since 9/11.

Frownland 03-19-2017 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815025)
If you don't see the irony of a government that is efficient about taking your money and paying its' bureaucrats but bungles pretty much everything else .

My point was that this is such a narrow view of the government that it borders on wilful ignorance or exclusion. What about infrasctructure? Human rights? Child labor laws? Social security systems?

But nah you've dealt with the government when they taxed your tech company so you know that that's all they do and therefore they are exclusively monsters and there is no room for improvement ever.

DwnWthVwls 03-19-2017 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815025)
In the U.S. all you can do IS vote with your dollar pretty much. Not on everything, but in most things it's all you've got.

I don't disagree with that. What I'm asking you to acknowledge is that a significant portion of the population are not actually in a position to do so.

For instance, when Walmart is basically the only option you have, and you have a low income, you shop there for the basic necessities of life, even though it is a terrible company. I never shop there because I am fortunate enough to have other options and the financial capacity to take my business else where.

Raust 03-19-2017 10:30 AM

http://archive.is/r2Xca
Wait House Intelligence Chairman says there was no evidence of any collusion with Trump and Russia? Well sheeeeeeit...

I was looking forward to some red scare bull****...

Anteater 03-19-2017 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1815028)
My point was that this is such a narrow view of the government that it borders on wilful ignorance or exclusion. What about infrasctructure? Human rights? Child labor laws? Social security systems?

But nah you've dealt with the government when they taxed your tech company so you know that that's all they do and therefore they are exclusively monsters and there is no room for improvement ever.

But I know they never will improve, so there you go. Why? Because they will never be efficient and don't really want to be. Too many agendas above our heads that the American people can't compete with. And I did talk (albeit briefly) about how ideals don't match reality in regards to social security systems.

Real change will only occur if you can get money out of politics. That won't happen under a Democratic or Republican administration. You need something resembling the Libertarian ideal to be embraced by the mainstream voter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DwnWthVwls (Post 1815029)
I don't disagree with that. What I'm asking you to acknowledge is that a significant portion of the population are not actually in a position to do so.

For instance, when Walmart is basically the only option you have, and you have a low income, you shop there for the basic necessities of life, even though it is a terrible company. I never shop there because I am fortunate enough to have other options and the financial capacity to take my business else where.

Agreed: a lot of people have little to work with. You need different companies and industries to set up in an area to have a diversified economy, otherwise you have a lot of what you've described. The government is never going to swoop in and create opportunities for those people, but new companies might.

Frownland 03-19-2017 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815033)
But I know they never will improve, so there you go. Why? Because they will never be efficient and don't really want to be. Too many agendas above our heads that the American people can't compete with. And I did talk (albeit briefly) about how ideals don't match reality in regards to social security systems.

Real change will only occur if you can get money out of politics. That won't happen under a Democratic or Republican administration. You need something resembling the Libertarian ideal to be embraced by the mainstream voter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1814992)
Or, you know, you could try a counter argument. Or something with substance. Maybe I'm asking a bit much? :D

Heavy handed assumptions are pointless. Let me know if you end your love affair with them.

elphenor 03-19-2017 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1814989)
This is hands down my least favourite cliche ftr.

You're gonna give yourself carpal tunnel if you keep patting yourself on the back like that man.

It's also not even true funny enough

Studies show people decide their politics at a young age and then confirmation bias through adulthood mostly

Anteater 03-19-2017 10:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1815035)
Heavy handed assumptions are pointless. Let me know if you end your love affair with them.

Let me know when you guys can do better than generalities about how government is so great and how they'll always look out for the people as long as the word "Democrat" is in there somewhere.

bulbasaur 03-19-2017 10:48 AM

those quotes in anteater's sig are fake, right

Frownland 03-19-2017 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815037)
Let me know when you guys can do better than generalities about how government is so great and how they'll always look out for the people as long as the word "Democrat" is in there somewhere.

Who's speaking in generalities? You do realize blanket assumptions in the opposite direction are just as moronic as what you describe here, right?

Janszoon 03-19-2017 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815005)
See, that wasn't so hard. If Janszoon can do it, anyone can!

At least you have the common sense to recognize that not all corporations are as you describe. Still doesn't provide a strong argument against the problems I've already illustrated about government though. It's like you read two sentences of my post and then went off on a tangent about corporations.

No, it's like I read your "when you grow up you'll get more conservative" comment and provided a counterexample.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815005)
See, I can decide whether or not I want to buy from a company. I don't get a say in how my taxes are used but the government takes it anyway (state and federal alike). Hence, from my perspective, the government has always been worse than any company and far scarier.

I'm familiar with the libertarian fantasy world, thanks. I used to consider myself somewhat of a libertarian, then I grew up. Maybe someday you'll grow up too. ;)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815005)
Also, most of your criticisms about the corporate world apply to government, so if your goal was to support my argument then you hit the jackpot.

The comparison was intentional, congratulations on partially understanding something I articulated to you. It doesn't support your argument though, it highlights the fact that corporations have the downsides that governments have without having even the theoretical positive of protecting people.

Anteater 03-19-2017 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1815041)
No, it's like I read your "when you grow up you'll get more conservative" comments and provided a counterexample.

Sure. When you grow up you realize the government isn't exactly looking out for you. Believing otherwise is a fantasy. I never suggested corporations were an alternative to government (since we are forced to deal with some form of government no matter how you slice it): you made that leap.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1815041)
I'm familiar with the libertarian fantasy world, thanks. I used to consider myself somewhat of a libertarian, then I grew up. Maybe someday you'll grow up too. ;)

So you "grew up" from being skeptical of government to believing that they're the answer to the world's problems because Bush and Obama said nice things on T.V.? Looks like a step down to me. ;)


Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1815041)
The comparison was intentional, congratulations on partially understanding something I articulated to you. It doesn't support your argument though, it highlights the fact that corporations have the downsides that governments have without having even the theoretical positive of protecting people.

I understood everything you articulated to me: I just thought it was a pointless of you to do so since the only reason you argued against me appears to be "Anteater is wrong for not "believing" in government like I do".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frownland (Post 1815040)
Who's speaking in generalities? You do realize blanket assumptions in the opposite direction are just as moronic as what you describe here, right?

All I did was propose a possible solution only to get dismissed for basically no reason. You can't have this both ways where you acknowledge you guys are being petty and generalizing and then criticize me just because I think there's merit to certain aspects of conservatism.

Janszoon 03-19-2017 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815051)
Sure. When you grow up you realize the government isn't exactly looking out for you. Believing otherwise is a fantasy. I never suggested corporations were an alternative to that: you made that leap.

Never said the government was. I said they're one of the only levers we have to use against corporations.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815051)
So you "grew up" from being skeptical of government to believing that they're the answer to the world's problems because Bush and Obama said nice things on T.V.?

No, I grew up from having simpleminded libertarian anti-government knee-jerk views to understanding that government—which is rife with it's own problems—is one of the only things that can curb corporate abuses.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815051)
I understood everything you articulated to me: I just thought it was a pointless of you to make since the only reason you argued against me appears to be "Anteater is wrong for not "believing" in government like I do".

Apparently you didn't understand, considering your descriptions of my position.

The Batlord 03-19-2017 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815033)
Real change will only occur if you can get money out of politics. That won't happen under a Democratic or Republican administration. You need something resembling the Libertarian ideal to be embraced by the mainstream voter.

Cause when gubment takes its hands off big business, big business returns the favor? Yeah ok bud.

Anteater 03-19-2017 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1815055)
Never said the government was. I said they're one of the only levers we have to use against corporations.

They certainly can be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1815055)
No, I grew up from having simpleminded libertarian anti-government knee-jerk views to understanding that government—which is rife with it's own problems—is one of the only things that can curb corporate abuses.

Corporations will never stop trying to lobby government, but the government are the ones who keep that door open. As I said before...cut the money out. It'll be magical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janszoon (Post 1815055)
Apparently you didn't understand, considering your descriptions of my position.

To be fair, you don't seem to understand my position very well either if you really think Libertarians are "simpleminded". :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 1815057)
Cause when gubment takes its hands off big business, big business returns the favor? Yeah ok bud.

Have I ever been an advocate for deregulated big business over government? I think government can be worse, but nobody wants to live in the universe of Snow Crash either.

The Batlord 03-19-2017 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anteater (Post 1815060)
They certainly can be.



Corporations will never stop trying to lobby government, but the government are the ones who keep that door open. As I said before...cut the money out. It'll be magical.



To be fair, you don't seem to understand my position very well either if you really think Libertarians are "simpleminded". :)

So how do you intend to remove money from politics? Besides magic?


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