Originally Posted by Dylstew

What's important is that the people that like that type of artist, their niche, know about the good artist. If not, it'll be underappreciated because they don't know about it. It doesn't matter if it's fully mainstream, why would you care so much about that?
When that happens it's usually just mindless sheep/drones that like whatever they're told to like by marketing, or people that just never take the effort to look for better music, making them only listen to what's on the radio. Why would it matter what they think about the artist?

it matters if it's well known to the people that genuinely care about that type of music, at least to me. There''s a lot of Punk bands I like that are nowhere near popular compared to pop punk or mainstream music, but they're very well known by almost any punk fan so I don't really care too much about it.

Originally Posted by Psy-Fi

Back in 1989, Frank Zappa released an autobiography called "The Real Frank Zappa Book." Being a big fan of Zappa and The Mothers of Invention, I bought a copy of the book and read it through. In the book, Frank mentions a speech he gave, in 1984, to the convention of the American Society of University Composers (ASUC). It was one of many interesting parts in the book, that stuck in my mind, and it is just as relevant today and just as humorous now as it was then. I found the entire speech reproduced at a website and thought I'd post some excerpts here, since they fit the topic of this thread. I've also included the link to the entire speech, in case anyone is interested in reading it in it's entirety.

Here are some excerpts from the speech...


"Back in the old days, when all the REALLY GOOD MUSIC was being written, composers were TRULY INSPIRED, had a DEEP MEANING in their works and SUFFERED INTENSE EMOTIONAL DISCOMFORT as these GREAT WORKS were 'BORN'."

Yes, people still believe in this kind of stuff. In truth, the situation was pretty much the same as now, (with a few slight variations).

THEN: The composer had to write for the specific tastes (no matter how bad) of, THE KING, THE POLITICAL DICTATOR, or THE CHURCH. Failure to do so resulted in unemployment, torture or death. The public was not consulted. They simply were not equipped to make assessments of relative merit from gavotte to gavotte. If the KING couldn't gavotte to it, then it had no right to exist.

ALL OF THE SWILL PRODUCED UNDER THESE CONSTRAINTS IS WHAT WE NOW ADMIRE AS 'REAL CLASSICAL MUSIC'. Forget what it sounds like . . . forget whether or not you happen to enjoy it . . . that's how it got made . . . and when music is taught in schools, it is the 'taste norms' of those KINGS, DICTATORS, and CLERICS which are perpetuated in the harmony and counterpoint classes.

After those are doled out, and the student gets to the 'advanced stuff', he is introduced to the splendors of 12-tone rigmarole, serialized dynamics, and computer programming of 'automated indeterminate composition'.

Those 'tools' enable the budding genius to do what everybody else does in 'modern life': hide behind preposterous regulations (preferably as a member of a 'committee'), in order to absolve himself of blame or responsibility for 'individual action' --- in this case, the heinous act of 'musical creation'. By conforming to these idiocies, the young composer receives praise, certification of splendidness, and GRANT MONEY. Everything his teachers would murder for.

Anyone not choosing to follow this approved method of enlightenment is regarded as a fool or a pervert.

Today, the composer has to write for the specific tastes (no matter how bad) of 'THE KING' (now disguised as a Movie or TV producer, The Head of the Opera Company, The Lady With The Frightening Hair on the Special Committee, or her niece, DEBBIE).

Some of you don't know about DEBBIE since you don't have to deal with radio stations or record companies in the way that people from the 'other world' do, but you ought to find out about her, just in case you decide to 'switch over' later.

DEBBIE is thirteen years old. Her parents like to think of themselves as 'average, God-fearing American White People'. Her dad belongs to a corrupt Union of some sort and is, as we might suspect, a lazy incompetent, over-paid, ignorant sonofabitch. Her mom is a sexually maladjusted mercenary shrew who lives only to spend her husband's paycheck on ridiculous clothes designed to make her look 'younger'.

DEBBIE is incredibly stupid. She has been raised to respect the values and attitudes which her parents hold sacred. Sometimes she dreams about being kissed by a lifeguard.

When the people in THE SECRET OFFICE WHERE THEY RUN EVERYTHING FROM found out about DEBBIE, they were thrilled. She was perfect. She was hopeless. She was THEIR KIND OF GIRL. She was immediately chosen for the critical role of 'ARCH-TYPICAL IMAGINARY POP MUSIC CONSUMERAND ULTIMATE ARBITER OF MUSICAL TASTE FOR THE ENTIRE NATION'. From that moment on, everything musical in this country would have to be modified to conform to what they computed to be HER NEEDS & DESIRES.

DEBBIE'S 'taste' determined the size, shape and color of all musical information in the United States during the latter part of the twentieth century. Eventually she grew up to be just like her mother and married a guy just like her father. She has somehow managed to reproduce herself. The people in THE SECRET OFFICE have their eye on her daughter at this very moment.

As a SERIOUS AMERICAN COMPOSER, should DEBBIE really concern you? Because DEBBIE prefers only short songs with lyrics about boy-girl situations sung by persons of indeterminate sex, wearing S & M clothing, and because there is LARGE MONEY INVOLVED, the major record companies, which, a few years ago, occasionally risked investment in recording of new works, have all but shut down their 'classical divisions' and seldom record 'new music'. The small labels that do release it have wretched distribution. Some have wretched accounting procedures. They might release your recording, but you won't get paid.

The problem with living composers is: THEY HAVE TO EAT. Mostly what they eat is brown and lumpy. There is no question that this diet has had an effect on their work.

Just as composers in the earlier age had to accommodate the whims of KINGS, DICTATORS, and CHURCHES, composers today must write for the amusement and edification of their sinister descendants: The Guy who Figures Out What Kind of Tax Break you get from ARTS DONATIONS, The OIL, TOBACCO, or CHEMICAL COMPANY That Needs To 'Lose' a Few Million Bucks By The End of The Fiscal Year, The Five guys Who Program All the Radio Stations in The U.S., The Fanatic Fundamentalists Who Demand Bland Lyric Content and Total avoidance of Biological Reality, and The M.B.A.s Who Advise Everyone On How TO Make More Money By Praising Ignorance and Docility While Suppressing Anything Intelligent or Inventive."


And here is the link to the entire speech...

Bingo! There Goes Your Tenure! - The Full Speech

Originally Posted by Ninetales

i guess why im so rattled by all these threads, is that people who like mainstream music are relegated to "general listeners" or whatever. I love Carly Rae Jepsen. Ill defend her music to the grave. It has a time and a place in my life. As do other pop stars like Bieber, Katy Perry, Kesha, etc.

One of my good friends loves modern pop music almost exclusively. He'll buy Rihanna's new album or jam out to the one direction on the regular. Its always funny when people try to "reason" with him as to why he listens to it, as if he's wrong or something. His response is usually just a shrug with "i just like listening to it". what a crazy concept eh.

Originally Posted by realtalk92

However, what I do find issue with is the media telling me a generic song is prolific when it is not or calling a pop star a "songwriter" or "artist" when they are not.

Originally Posted by realtalk92

I love pop music as well. I love all types of music actually. It is just sad to see the destruction pop music has turned into over the past 15-20 years. Music goes into waves and trends do shift but there is a undeniable difference in this generation of pop stars and music compared to previous decades. Whether you listen to pop or not, if you call yourself a music listener I think it is something interesting to talk about.

Originally Posted by Dylstew

There's nothing wrong with liking mainstream music, I don't see the problem in that. I do see a problem with mindless, spoonfed sheep.

Originally Posted by realtalk92

I love pop music as well. I love all types of music actually. It is just sad to see the destruction pop music has turned into over the past 15-20 years. Music goes into waves and trends do shift but there is a undeniable difference in this generation of pop stars and music compared to previous decades. Whether you listen to pop or not, if you call yourself a music listener I think it is something interesting to talk about.

Originally Posted by J.R.R. Tolkien

There is only one bright spot and that is the growing habit of disgruntled men of dynamiting factories and power-stations; I hope that, encouraged now as ‘patriotism’, may remain a habit! But it won’t do any good, if it is not universal.

Originally Posted by Ninetales

I understand your main point about casual music listeners, but I dont understand why it would matter what they listen to then. Youve been talking about Janelle Monae being a superstar, but if that only means bringing her into an audience that is self-admitted to being indifferent to music, why bother?



er well prolific literally describes a popular song, so maybe you got the words wrong there? But if you mean "great" then tomato, tomahto. People will always disagree what is "great". Not sure why using the word "artist" would upset you either. It's a reasonable describer too.



Well sure theres a difference. But imo it's not a bad one. Ill take pop from the 2010s over pop from the 1960s anyday. It might be an interesting topic, but usually when it's discussed it just turns into a shit throwing contest to glorify older music ad nauseam



Not everyone loves music, so what?

Originally Posted by Dylstew

There's nothing wrong with liking mainstream music, I don't see the problem in that. I do see a problem with mindless, spoonfed sheep.