TheBig3

It wasn't that clear cut (I suspect for legal reasons). They spoke to my supervisor and said "we'd like to promote him, can you get him to shave?" I told her no flatly at first but I didn't want to be left behind, 4 new positions were opening and if I wasn't in that position, I'd be reporting to the other 3 and someone who took my spot, so I did it.

The job thing was a little understandable I suppose since I was front-line in Customer Service then, so they were looking for someone who gave the image of top-of-the-line, Hilton-level professionalism.

Its not really the hair style's that I'd say are the issue. You can wear your hair a lot longer than the Military cut and be accepted into high society, but the stigma that you're supposed to be the support system for the family, you're supposed to be independent, you're supposed to be a rock.

The social limitations are perpetuated by men. I think the "provider" element is still perpetuated by women. Not all of them - not all men care what your hair looks like - but if I were to go on a first date and I wasn't paying for dinner I doubt there'd be a second.

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I've moved to a new address

boo boo

I share your desire for men and women to have as much equal rights as possible, so people can just be comfortable with who they are instead of wishing they were something they are not. I think women have a lot of great things about them so it always saddens me that they still feel inferior because men have certain privilages.

However I don't believe we can be truly equal in all ways, we have too many physical, even psychological distinctions. I'm rather traditional because I don't believe we should shun these all differences and we should take pride in them, women have things that set them apart from men but I think any heterosexual male will agree with me that that's a great thing and I'm sure heterosexual women feel the same way about men and the things that set them apart from women.

Heterosexuals are of course attracted to the opposite of what they are, we're not attracted to people who have too many of the same qualities as we do. Not just physically but personally as well, nobody wants to be stuck with a clone of themselves with only physical distinctions setting them apart.

In other words I'm a champion of diversity and a big reason I can be a harsh critic of certain kinds feminism is because I feel they shun the distinctions and privilages that come with being female instead of embracing them. My definition of feminism is wanting equal rights for men and women but at the same time embracing the fact that you ARE female and the fact that I AM male, and there's nothing wrong with either.

Instead of wanting to be a man or wanting to create a sexless society. Which is not only unrealistic and impossible, it's not something everybody wants either if you haven't figured that out.

For the record, I think guys wearing shorts and sandals and showing their hairy legs/hooves is the ugliest thing in existence. Maybe most people wouldn't mock their appearance, but this assh*le surely will.

Also beards are acceptable somewhat but a lot of people still don't like them so if you have an especially long one that could still make getting a job difficult.

And of course a man can't hide his beard, a woman can hide her hairy legs, women wearing pants is perfectly acceptable. So if you want to not shave your legs but wear pants, NOBODY is denying you that choice. Yeah if you show your legs you will get mocked but if I started showing up to work in a dress I would get mocked too.

We all find certain things unattractive and unsightly, you do too I'm sure, that just isn't gonna change.

Sigh.

You know, I've told you a thousand times that I don't actually believe women HAVE to shave their legs right?

I just prefer that they do. I also prefer them not to be morbidly obese. You know thin women can wear bikinis and we think it's hot but when really fat women do it we think it's ugly. Why not make an issue out of that?

Aesthetics, look it up, everyone has an opinion about it.

Aesthetics. Race roles are much more superficial than gender roles because gender roles sometimes (not always but sometimes) have a hint of scientific accuracy to them.

I've told you this before. Body hair is something we associate with masculinity but it's not for completely irrational reasons. It's a fact that men are naturally more hairy because of their testosterone levels, the hairier the man the higher it is. Women have less testosterone than men so they are less hairy, women that are unusually hairy have less estrogen in their stystem.

And yes, we associate testosterone with masculinity and estrogen with femininity but is it completely irrational to do this? No because it has an actual scientific basis.

Now this is reaching a new level of absurdity. Having aesthetic preferences and standards and treating and selling women like cattle is not the same f*cking thing. Yes we have aesthetic standards that only apply to women, we have aesthetic standards that only apply to men as well. This is common in the animal kingdom and it's not "unnatural" at all. We also have aesthetic standards that apply to both sexes, also not unnatural, just human nature.

Now just to be fair, somebody should make one about the men's fashion industry and how MEN are expected to look a certain way to please the opposite sex. If you don't think that BOTH sexes are expected to look certain ways to please the other sex then you are delusional.

Aesthetics is a major part of human sexuality. A utopian society where people don't judge by appearance at all may sound great to you and all that jazz but it's unrealistic to human biology.

Do you not read me ever? I DON'T think women should be denied the rights to show their hairy legs, I'm just defending people's rights to their asthetic preferences. Women have them too and don't tell me that men don't have to worry about living up to them.

My issue with you has always been the way you treat women who choose to shave their legs. And why is that so hard to grasp? I believe in equal rights, and part of that means accepting the decisions other people make as well as their opinions and that's the part you don't seem to understand.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

boo boo

Challenging society isn't telling other people they are wrong, it's doing what you think is right.

A lot of people share your beliefs but their either/or mentality and the way they villify people they don't see eye to eye with is what causes people like me to look at this kind of feminism in a negative light. As in it's hurting your cause.

Exactly, back then women weren't allowed to show much of their body at all, do you think that's actually preferable to our current situation because I don't. This dark age in human history you keep talking about made it possible for western women to come out of their shells.

Women no longer being treated like private property and being taught not to be ashamed of their sexuality was a great moment in feminist history, which modern radical feminists have completely twisted around to support their own backwards cause.

Guys wax too, a lot of homosexual men (not all, don't flip out Adidasss) prefer the hairless look on guys, should we talk about how homosexual men oppress other.... homosexual men? Because they want them to look a certain way?

And lets stop pretending that women have no aesthetic standards when it comes to men because the way you make it out like only men care about physical appearance is in itself pretty sexist.

Tell me, when was the last time you've seen a male model bare a hairy chest? Ever?

I've never seen one. Look at Adidasss's avatar, using your very same logic I should get on his case for having "unnatural" standards when it comes to male attractiveness.

I would ridicule him. =D

Are women with beards gonna be your next cause to fight for?

I'm sure there's a fetish for that too.

We're a very progressive society Vegan at least more than we've ever been before, I really don't think not shaving your legs is gonna cause anyone to nail you to a freaking cross. I've seen women with hairy legs, I've may have found it unsightly and gross but I didn't try to stone them to death either.

You and me both have different ideals of what is beautiful. But forcing other people to share your ideals isn't any less fascist than what you are ranting about.

Many people are attracted to things that aren't considered normal, there's people like me with the fetish for bald women, and there's even people with fetishes for hairy women. And there's people with fetishes for furry animal suits and IMO those people with furry animal suits have just as many rights as everyone else as any individual with their own idea of beauty.

But what we all have to accept is that many people don't see it our way and never will see it our way and that's ok, we can't force people to see it our way, we can celebrate why we are the way we are, spread the idea of what we are and what we like. But we can't force it.

And besides if everyone was the same way it would be f*cking boring. Be proud that you're different instead of wishing everyone was like you.

Tell him to get an avatar of a hairy guy then because I find his avatar offensive.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Urban Hat€monger ?

Actually in my last job I was sent home and told to have a shave for having less that a days growth on my face on a couple of occasions.
You don't think that being sent home in front of your work colleagues is public humiliation too?

and they were forever on at me to get haircuts the minute the back of my hair went below my collar.

I don't recall any women getting sent home to shave or told to have haircuts.

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boo boo

Also my remark about Adidasss and PMS was just a joke. It was more a remark about his attitude (which has always been notoriously moody) than his sexuality.

And urban is right. I have long hair (feminine you could say) and I get attention for it all the time, sometimes it's flattering, women telling me they envy my hair, I always get a kick out of that. But I also get called things like "caveman" and "hippie" or whatever.

My mom runs a hair salon, when I'm there I will read the hair catalogs for both men and women to see what kinda styles are fashionable these days. Womens catalogs promote a wide range of hair styles (sadly never including my favorite) ranging from long to short, while mens tend to be more conservative and limited to short or chin length styles.

Men with very long hair definitely get looked at, I weirded out people for a long time when I decided to keep my hair long, constantly getting told that I need a haircut but eventually everyone who knows me well got to accept it. That's how you get people to accept things, by just being yourself, not giving a f*ck what they say no matter how hurtful and giving them time to get used to it.

The more you try to force your ideas on others the more aggressively they will reject them.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

boo boo

Stop wearing bras. Now THAT is feminism I can get behind.

And you know what? I've seen women wear shirts without bras, since the 60s this started gaining some acceptence, maybe Austrailia is still more conservative but here it's not as big of a deal.

As a matter of fact, there's a chick who wears shirts and no bras that lives in my apartment building. And nobody says SH*T to her about it.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

Tea Supremacist

Off the hair debate for a moment... Vegan, what are the attitudes to breastfeeding in public where you are? Over here (or perhaps just the area I'm in?) the attitude is quite conservative, which is a shame. In some places, what is a natural activity can be viewed as fairly offensive. Just a couple of weeks ago I met a friend for lunch and the woman on the table next to us was breastfeeding her baby. The Manager came straight over and asked if she could go somewhere else and do it as it was 'putting off the other customers' (this was a half empty fecking Deli/Cafe, not some glitzy resturant!). She was reduced to having to go to the bathroom and sit on the toilet to breastfeed her child (I was a little confused as to how it was fair to ask her to go somewhere else without providing any appropriate facilities), which I thought was a little too far. It's not the first time I've seen this happen and it's something that I actually find a little upsetting.

Another case was when a group of friends and myself were having some lunch in the grounds of the castle (yeah, that's right, we have a castle to go lunch at where I live!) - these are public grounds and on a nice day it's a great place for families to go for a picnic or whatever. Anyway, one family had a baby and the woman began to breastfeed it. Within minutes, a Mother from another family asked her if she could move or do it in private as she didn't want her children (maybe 6-8 years old) to see 'things like that'.

Sorry for the rant, and veering slightly off topic, but I'm curious to know if everywhere is like this or whether I just come from a conservative, narrowminded area! From speaking to people who are against public breastfeeding it seems to stem from both men AND women, rather than it just being a bit of an uncomfortable thing for a bloke to be around (which, at a push, I can understand). I understand that back in the day it was quite a private thing to do, but surely it can't cause offense these days?

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boo boo

I don't get why women still have to cover their breasts, everyone has seen them and knows what they look like. And these days we see everything but the areola. Why? We have them too.

I think the ONLY reason is because it's been social stigma for so damn long, something that probably started out of religious repression of sexuality.

I still think (in the US at least) that women can get away with wearing shirts/dresses without bras though, I've seen it. It's not illegal, though it will make getting a job difficult.

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It's only knock n' knowall, but I like it

http://www.last.fm/user/kingboobs

TheCunningStunt

I agree.

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Last FM

VEGANGELICA

Here, Urban - I'm putting my comments to you first so that in case you're skim-reading this post, you won't have to skim far!

Yes, being told to go home to shave your face IS public humiliation. I was wrong, then, that men aren't humiliated for having facial hair, and you are right. If I saw someone being treated at my office like you were, oooooo, believe me, Urban, I'd be sticking up for that person immediately. Grrrr. It makes me upset just thinking of someone telling you that.

Have you actually seen women coworkers who didn't shave legs and underarms and revealed this in public? In the last ten years or so I have never seen any woman at all at my university who doesn't shave.

Your workplace's desire to have you smooth-shaven reminds me of a news report about an obese nurse who was fired from her job because she didn't fit the "healthful" mold they want nurses to fit in.

Yes, I agree the pressure on men to be a strong provider is greater than on women. I often think men actually seem more scared and timid than women in social situations...more afraid to rock the boat, more likely to follow social rules. They seem to hold it in more, keep a stiff upper lip more, etc.

Tea Supremacist, women's breastfeeding rights is a topic I like even more than shaving issues!

Unfortunately, the views toward breastfeeding in Iowa sound similarly conservative, although I never received any negative comments in public. However, in Des Moines several years ago a restaurant owner asked a woman to breastfeed her child in the bathroom, just like you describe. People then had a "breastfeeding sit-in" at a restaurant across the street to protest this woman's treatment. Such "nurse-in" protests around the U.S. this year show that discrimination against breastfeeding moms is still a problem activists are trying to solve.

Here in Iowa women have the LEGAL right to breastfeed a child anywhere the women themselves may legally be in public. However, women socially are still pressured to hide their breastfeeding. I see a lot of women covering their whole baby with a blanket when they breastfeed, trying to "be discreet." Heh heh...as you can imagine, I did *not* half-smother my child, as if his breastfeeding were a thing to be ashamed of.

I joined Le Leche League to get support...a great group I recommend highly! This was especially helpful for me because I chose to do child-led weaning, which means your child probably loses the urge to breastfeed when s/he is 5 years old. So people's negative feelings about that was another issue I had to face, because in most Western cultures people start to think of breastfeeding as REALLY lewd once the baby is no longer a baby!

You mentioned the important issue of women and careers in an earlier post: I definitely feel workplaces need to support breastfeeding mothers. Iowa is doing this...breaking news...by requiring workplaces to have a special private place, not a toilet, for women to pump milk (for their child's first 2 years):
Iowa proposal for breastfeeding moms is stronger than federal one | Des Moines Register Staff Blogs

However, I also feel it is important for workplaces and commercial establishments to support women breastfeeding their children in public.

I loved breastfeeding my child, Tea. It was a wonderful experience...so close and sweet. I'd like every mom to feel free to give her child the best nourishment for young ones whenever the child is hungry or just wants the comfort. A big part of breastfeeding is the emotional security it gives the child, and a lot of people want to deny that, I've found, as if it were trivial.

Eating lunch at a castle! You lucky duck!

Boo boo...sometimes I feel like you don't read ME!!! I don't expect people to all like hair on other people's bodies--they can't just change their feelings overnight--but I DO mind when they ACT on their feelings by putting people down or discriminating against them at their jobs.

I am not denying the right of people to SHAVE...I am trying to support the right of people NOT to shave. (Or to shave their heads. ) However, I know that any time people give in to some social norm, they are perpetuating that norm and all the negative views of the human body that underlie those norms, whether they want to be doing this or not. I want people to question what they are doing and not just follow norms out of fear.

I completely agree with you that there is nothing wrong with women and men having distinctions. That's why I support women breastfeeding their kids, being able to reveal their breasts, being able to embrace emotional/physical changes their bodies go through, being able to have non-medicalized births, and being able to have their birthday suits grow into their older-people-suits, embracing their bodies as they are without feeling ashamed of them.

What gave you the idea that I want men and women to be identical? What I want is for people to not be pressured or forced into gender roles like straight-jackets. If a woman wants to do whatever some culture thinks of as "manly," that is completely fine with me. If a woman wants to wear dresses, that's fine, too. Even *I* actually own some dresses. Really. I think they are pretty.

I was not saying that shaving legs is equivalent in severity to parents in India selling child-brides to men, or women killing their baby daughters because of the pressure to have sons in China. I was saying they are RELATED in that these practices all involve looking down on women and not fully valuing them as human beings. The fact that men are also critiqued and criticized based on appearance does not mean we should ACCEPT when this is done to women. I feel we should oppose the objectification of both women AND men.

I didn't know there were fetishes for furry animal suits! I might need to find one of these people, since I wouldn't need the suit! ;-)

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