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Old 05-02-2009, 11:55 AM   #2001 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Janszoon View Post
I don't really see any irony in someone having different tastes from you. You think Elliot Smith is the greatest thing since sliced bread. That's fine. You're entitled to your opinion but keep in mind that your opinion is not some kind of objective fact, and hurling insults at people for not sharing it is really silly.
There is a certain amount of objectivity when it comes to whether or not a band is overrated seeing as it's something that can be measured. Elliott Smith isn't a critically overpraised artist, all his albums with the exception of Either/Or tend to receive moderate reviews. Figure 8 and Roman Candle are regularly panned in fact. So in that sense he's far from overrated.

As far as discussion here goes, again he isn't very discussed here anymore. At a time it would have been totally fair (like over a year ago) but now? It makes no sense to bring him up - especially when he's juxtaposed with Manic Street Preachers and the Arcade Fire who regularly receive rave reviews, sell out venues and everyone has heard of him. I completely stand by Jackhammer's comment being ignorant - and hypocritical considering he was one of the people who ran around hyping Bon Iver who were a pitchfork flavor of the month band and treated like some god amongst singer/songwriters after only one album.
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Originally Posted by METALLICA89 View Post
Ive seen you on muiltipul forums saying Metallica and slayer are the worst **** you kid go suck your **** while you listen to your ****ing emo **** I bet you do listen to emo music
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:15 PM   #2002 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by boo boo View Post
I've listened to Pink Moon, it's probably the most boring thing I've ever subjected myself to listening to (until that Okkervil River album at least), the whole thing just sounded lazy, maybe there's something to his sound that's more original than other folk singers that I didn't catch, but it just sounds like the very basic strummed and fingerpicked open chords that most folk signers use to me, the kinda stuff that every guitar teacher lectures you about before anything else.
Most folk singers only use open chords and finger picking because there isn't much else. Vibrato generally doesn't sound good on an acoustic guitar, there's string skipping - which many including Nick Drake use and palm muting just sounds lame on an acoustic guitar. You really need to stop arguing that certain folk guitarists are bad because all they do is finger pick and strum open chords - there isn't much else to it. It isn't prog boo boo.

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There's not a lot of skill required in that kind of playing at all, I can play it, anyone can play it. Even punk rock is more demanding. Now if you say he's a good guitarist, that's your opinion and that's fine.
You've said several times there's no skill required in what Nick Drake does and you even said you could play any of his songs before but whenever you're asked to prove it you always back away (I don't expect a different result this time but for the sake of arguing) why not prove it? Play one of his songs (of Comus' choosing.) I don't understand how you can say punk rock is more demanding anyway - finger picking isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be.

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But Lush? His music sounds pretty damn primitive and stripped down to me. Complex? Now I know you're messing with me.
If you're looking at complexity/lushness (in a general sense, this is ignoring Bryter Layter) in terms of how full it sounds then you're entirely missing his points. Comus is saying it takes a lot of skill to record an album with just you and your guitar and make it sound the way Pink Moon does - which is versatile and yes even, gasp! complex. Drake has a great ear for melody and chord progressions and it shows.

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More technically skilled than Fripp and Latimer? This goes beyond the boundries of having a subjective opinion and just saying something that is flat out objectively wrong. How do you expect me to take you seriously when you say things like this?
You're putting words in his mouth now to make him look dumb. Don't do that; it's a bad habit. Comus never said he was more technically skilled than Fripp/Latimer that wasn't his argument at all. It had more to do with what I explained above and melody then the ability to shred.
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Originally Posted by METALLICA89 View Post
Ive seen you on muiltipul forums saying Metallica and slayer are the worst **** you kid go suck your **** while you listen to your ****ing emo **** I bet you do listen to emo music
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:18 PM   #2003 (permalink)
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The ability to create a great melody still counts as skill. The most beautiful melodies could come in to your head 24/7 but if you don't practice on an instrument and build up your skill you'll never be able to get those melodies out and on to the instrument.
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:28 PM   #2004 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sodacake View Post
The ability to create a great melody still counts as skill. The most beautiful melodies could come in to your head 24/7 but if you don't practice on an instrument and build up your skill you'll never be able to get those melodies out and on to the instrument.
yeah, alot of people don't realize how hard it is coming up with a good melody
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isn't this one of the main reasons for this entire site?

what's next? a thread made specifically to banter about music?
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:39 PM   #2005 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sleepy jack View Post
Most folk singers only use open chords and finger picking because there isn't much else. Vibrato generally doesn't sound good on an acoustic guitar, there's string skipping - which many including Nick Drake use and palm muting just sounds lame on an acoustic guitar. You really need to stop arguing that certain folk guitarists are bad because all they do is finger pick and strum open chords - there isn't much else to it. It isn't prog boo boo.
Drake being a bad guitarist is only my subjective opinion and there's no use trying to argue that. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is the idea that he is more technically skilled than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer, which is the flat out most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

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You've said several times there's no skill required in what Nick Drake does and you even said you could play any of his songs before but whenever you're asked to prove it you always back away (I don't expect a different result this time but for the sake of arguing) why not prove it? Play one of his songs (of Comus' choosing.) I don't understand how you can say punk rock is more demanding anyway - finger picking isn't nearly as easy as you make it out to be.
Well for one you're playing with other musicians. And playing at the speed and intensity of punk does demand the right amount of timing and chemestry from it's musicians.

I'm not saying finger picking is bad, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL, it can be one of the most difficult techniques when played at virtuoso level, and many of my favorite guitarists are finger pickers, but Drake's is the most basic of finger picking. Latimer flat out destroys him as a finger picker. There's legions upon legions of country and bluegrass players who display amazing finger picking chops, Drake is not in their league at all, and he sure as hell isn't in the league of prog guitarists.


Quote:
If you're looking at complexity/lushness (in a general sense, this is ignoring Bryter Layter) in terms of how full it sounds then you're entirely missing his points. Comus is saying it takes a lot of skill to record an album with just you and your guitar and make it sound the way Pink Moon does - which is versatile and yes even, gasp! complex. Drake has a great ear for melody and chord progressions and it shows.
This is the problem, you're taking his songwriting and producing skills into acount, I'm talking about Drake purely as a guitarist. Sure making records that sound exactly like him wouldn't be easy, but it's hard to imitate anybody 100%, everybody has a little bit of uniqueness, I'll give you that. But lets take this statement and run with it, can anybody play the Smells Like Teen Spirit riff? Can just anybody make an exact duplicate of the song as Nirvana recorded it? No.

Of course, I don't think Cobain is a more technically skilled guitarist than Robert Fripp either. And even you have to agree that that saying Drake makes more technically skilled and complex music than every prog guitarist ever is an extremely ignorant and ridiculous claim.

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You're putting words in his mouth now to make him look dumb. Don't do that; it's a bad habit. Comus never said he was more technically skilled than Fripp/Latimer that wasn't his argument at all. It had more to do with what I explained above and melody then the ability to shred.
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Drake far surpasses the skill of most progressive rock guitarists when it comes to creating melody alone. He's better than Fripp, Gilmour, Latimer, Creen and pretty much most other guitarists at the time.
You know Ethan, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the comments for once.

Now if he meant that as simply "Drake is more skilled at crafting melody than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer", well, that's still hilariously wrong, but that goes straight down to subjective opinion and thus isn't really worth arguing about.
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:41 PM   #2006 (permalink)
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hell, i destroy drake as a finger picker. 8-)
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Old 05-02-2009, 12:47 PM   #2007 (permalink)
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Most Mainstream is over-rated but to name a few:
almost all R&B artists/bands - one of things i hte the most about this is that it always say "featuring" when its the same people every time.

Lady Gaga - this person is more of a whore than any other person in her style of music.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:06 PM   #2008 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by sleepy jack View Post
There is a certain amount of objectivity when it comes to whether or not a band is overrated seeing as it's something that can be measured. Elliott Smith isn't a critically overpraised artist, all his albums with the exception of Either/Or tend to receive moderate reviews. Figure 8 and Roman Candle are regularly panned in fact. So in that sense he's far from overrated.

As far as discussion here goes, again he isn't very discussed here anymore. At a time it would have been totally fair (like over a year ago) but now? It makes no sense to bring him up - especially when he's juxtaposed with Manic Street Preachers and the Arcade Fire who regularly receive rave reviews, sell out venues and everyone has heard of him. I completely stand by Jackhammer's comment being ignorant - and hypocritical considering he was one of the people who ran around hyping Bon Iver who were a pitchfork flavor of the month band and treated like some god amongst singer/songwriters after only one album.
I think around here he is praised a lot actually and in general he seems to be very well-regarded by critics and "serious" music fans alike. On top of that, the man was even nominated for an Oscar at one time. I think it's safe to say that he's a pretty-highly rated artist and for those of us who don't like him, that puts him in the in overrated department. And I'm still unclear how liking Bon Iver makes someone a hypocrite or ignorant for saying that Elliott Smith is overrated. I don't like either one but I've definitely heard a hell of a lot more praise for Elliott Smith over the years than for Bon Iver.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:15 PM   #2009 (permalink)
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There's nothing objective about a band being overrated.

The basic criteria for being overrated is "a lot people love this band but I don't".

Seriously. How do you measure it? Do you take commercial success, critical acclaim, media coverage and the amount of fans all into account?

What happens when these measurements conflict with each other? Say a band gets no respect from critics and no coverage from the media, yet have a HUGE fan following, like Dream Theater. Are they overrated or underrated? Nirvana are commercial and critical darlings, but they get a lot of unfair and biased hate from a lot of people and their fanbase isn't what it used to be. Are they overrated or underrated?

What's the tie breaker? It's our subjective opinions.

Nothing objective about it at all.
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Old 05-02-2009, 04:19 PM   #2010 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by boo boo View Post
There's nothing objective about a band being overrated.

The basic criteria for being overrated is "a lot people love this band but I don't".

Seriously. How do you measure it? Do you take commercial success, critical acclaim, media coverage and the amount of fans all into account?

What happens when these measurements conflict with each other? Say a band gets no respect from critics and no coverage from the media, yet have a HUGE fan following. Like Dream Theater. Are they overrated or underrated? What's the title breaker? For me it's my subjective opinion that DT sucks ass and therefore they are overrated.

But that's completely subjective, nothing objective about it at all.
Absolutely. That's why it's ridiculous to call someone ignorant or hypocritical for think an artist is overrated.
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i'm not gonna spend my life on music banter trying to convince people the earth is flat.
A Night in the Life of the Invisible Man

Time & Place

25 Albums You Should Hear Before the Moon Crashes into the Earth and We All Die


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