Most overrated bands ever?

[Odyshape]

Originally Posted by boo boo

There's nothing objective about a band being overrated.

The basic criteria for being overrated is "a lot people love this band but I don't".

Seriously. How do you measure it? Do you take commercial success, critical acclaim, media coverage and the amount of fans all into account?

What happens when these measurements conflict with each other? Say a band gets no respect from critics and no coverage from the media, yet have a HUGE fan following, like Dream Theater. Are they overrated or underrated? Nirvana are commercial and critical darlings, but they get a lot of unfair and biased hate from a lot of people and their fanbase isn't what it used to be. Are they overrated or underrated?

What's the tie breaker? It's our subjective opinions.

Nothing objective about it at all.

Thats was very insightful

[Freebase Dali]

Originally Posted by boo boo

There's nothing objective about a band being overrated.

The basic criteria for being overrated is "a lot people love this band but I don't".

Seriously. How do you measure it? Do you take commercial success, critical acclaim, media coverage and the amount of fans all into account?

What happens when these measurements conflict with each other? Say a band gets no respect from critics and no coverage from the media, yet have a HUGE fan following, like Dream Theater. Are they overrated or underrated? Nirvana are commercial and critical darlings, but they get a lot of unfair and biased hate from a lot of people and their fanbase isn't what it used to be. Are they overrated or underrated?

What's the tie breaker? It's our subjective opinions.

Nothing objective about it at all.

I wanted to play devil's advocate to this, but you're not giving me much to work with.
Good job.

[jackhammer]

We cannot all have the same opinions but at the end of the day that's all they are: opinions. There is no right or wrong. Just tolerance I hope!

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I think around here he is praised a lot actually and in general he seems to be very well-regarded by critics and "serious" music fans alike. On top of that, the man was even nominated for an Oscar at one time. I think it's safe to say that he's a pretty-highly rated artist and for those of us who don't like him, that puts him in the in overrated department. And I'm still unclear how liking Bon Iver makes someone a hypocrite or ignorant for saying that Elliott Smith is overrated. I don't like either one but I've definitely heard a hell of a lot more praise for Elliott Smith over the years than for Bon Iver.

Elliott Smith didn't even get the Oscar and it was for his work on a soundtrack - and as I stated virtually all the songs (except Miss Misery) came from Either/Or which is his only album that is critically considered his masterpiece (something I acknowledged.) Calling him highly rated is a bit silly, he isn't that acknowledged (with the exception of New Moon which was hyped for a bit in Spin magazine but Spin tends to pander to the alternative crowd anyway and they quickly forgot it) outside the indie circle and the indie circle doesn't always rate him that highly: Pitchfork: Elliott Smith: Figure 8 This isn't the worst review I've seen for him but the tone of it has been reflected by Pitchfork (and certain devout followers you know who I'm talking about boo boo, the wantas of the world) like he's some sort of melodramatic emo kid.

The reason you've heard more praise for Bon Iver over the years...is because Bon Iver only released an album last year and you're kind of ignoring my point anyway and diving into semantics. My point was it kind of annoys me that jackhammer dismissed Elliott Smith in that manner when the same thing could be said about any of the singer/songwriters he likes. I feel it was disingenuous/dismissive of him.

Originally Posted by boo boo

There's nothing objective about a band being overrated.

The basic criteria for being overrated is "a lot people love this band but I don't".

Seriously. How do you measure it? Do you take commercial success, critical acclaim, media coverage and the amount of fans all into account?

What happens when these measurements conflict with each other? Say a band gets no respect from critics and no coverage from the media, yet have a HUGE fan following, like Dream Theater. Are they overrated or underrated? Nirvana are commercial and critical darlings, but they get a lot of unfair and biased hate from a lot of people and their fanbase isn't what it used to be. Are they overrated or underrated?

What's the tie breaker? It's our subjective opinions.

Nothing objective about it at all.

Wrong; your logic is skewed.The tie breaker isn't our subjective opinions because you're basing that opinion (if you take any single one of those criteria, regardless of if they're in conflict with one other) off of something objective - in Dream Theater's case it's their fan base but it would be one thing to say "Dream Theater is overrated by their fans" and another to say "Dream Theater is overrated by their critics" when you don't specify the assumption is that in a general sense they're overrated by everyone.

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by boo boo

Drake being a bad guitarist is only my subjective opinion and there's no use trying to argue that. That's not what I'm arguing.

What I'm arguing is the idea that he is more technically skilled than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer, which is the flat out most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.

He never said he was more technically skilled.

Well for one you're playing with other musicians. And playing at the speed and intensity of punk does demand the right amount of timing and chemestry from it's musicians.

Yeah but on the flip side playing by yourself is equally difficult because you have to make up for all those other musicians. I've played in punk bands it doesn't demand that much timing (seeing as it's all very standard) or chemistry - it's very simplistic stuff and very formulaic.

I'm not saying finger picking is bad, that's not what I'm saying AT ALL, it can be one of the most difficult techniques when played at virtuoso level, and many of my favorite guitarists are finger pickers, but Drake's is the most basic of finger picking. Latimer flat out destroys him as a finger picker. There's legions upon legions of country and bluegrass players who display amazing finger picking chops, Drake is not in their league at all, and he sure as hell isn't in the league of prog guitarists.

How is Nick Drake so terrible at finger picking? Give an example.

This is the problem, you're taking his songwriting and producing skills into acount, I'm talking about Drake purely as a guitarist. Sure making records that sound exactly like him wouldn't be easy, but it's hard to imitate anybody 100%, everybody has a little bit of uniqueness, I'll give you that. But lets take this statement and run with it, can anybody play the Smells Like Teen Spirit riff? Can just anybody make an exact duplicate of the song as Nirvana recorded it? No.

Um...no I'm not. I don't think Nick Drake even produced Pink Moon and seeing as Pink Moon is just HIS VOICE AND HIS GUITAR yes I'm going to attribute a lot of the atmosphere to his guitar seeing as it's the only instrument involved and to add onto that point of course I'm going to take his songwriting into account. Again Pink Moon; VOICE AND GUITAR. He WROTE the guitar parts and WRITING guitar parts is vital to being a good guitarist.

Of course, I don't think Cobain is a more technically skilled guitarist than Robert Fripp either. And even you have to agree that that saying Drake makes more technically skilled and complex music than every prog guitarist ever is an extremely ignorant and ridiculous claim.

All he said was Drake created better melodies than them. He never said he was more complex or technical.

You know Ethan, it wouldn't hurt to actually read the comments for once.

Now if he meant that as simply "Drake is more skilled at crafting melody than Fripp, Gilmour and Latimer", well, that's still hilariously wrong, but that goes straight down to subjective opinion and thus isn't really worth arguing about.

You realize melody isn't restricted to technical guitar playing right? You're completely twisting his words for the purposes of your own argument. Don't take an arrogant stance with me that I didn't read his post when you're doing things like this.

[Janszoon]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

Elliott Smith didn't even get the Oscar and it was for his work on a soundtrack - and as I stated virtually all the songs (except Miss Misery) came from Either/Or which is his only album that is critically considered his masterpiece (something I acknowledged.) Calling him highly rated is a bit silly, he isn't that acknowledged (with the exception of New Moon which was hyped for a bit in Spin magazine but Spin tends to pander to the alternative crowd anyway and they quickly forgot it) outside the indie circle and the indie circle doesn't always rate him that highly: Pitchfork: Elliott Smith: Figure 8 This isn't the worst review I've seen for him but the tone of it has been reflected by Pitchfork (and certain devout followers you know who I'm talking about boo boo, the wantas of the world) like he's some sort of melodramatic emo kid.

I'm not sure why you keep referring to Pitchfork like it's the end all be all of who is highly rated or not but if you want to talk about Pitchfork, how about the fact that they gave his album New Moon an 8.7/10 and listed XO as one of the top 100 albums of the 90s?

Also, so what if he didn't win the Oscar? Being nominated and performing at the Oscars are a big deal all by itself. I don't think Bon Iver or John Martyn were ever nominated for an Oscar.

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

The reason you've heard more praise for Bon Iver over the years...is because Bon Iver only released an album last year and you're kind of ignoring my point anyway and diving into semantics. My point was it kind of annoys me that jackhammer dismissed Elliott Smith in that manner when the same thing could be said about any of the singer/songwriters he likes. I feel it was disingenuous/dismissive of him.

Sure the same could be said of the other singer/songwriters. If you feel that John Martyn or Bon Iver (who I'm pretty sure is not an individual singer/songwriter but rather the name of a band) are overrated you should feel free to say so. That's the whole point of this thread. And I'm sure people would be happy to debate you about it but I would hope that they wouldn't get all testy and start insulting you.

[sleepy jack]

Originally Posted by Janszoon

I'm not sure why you keep referring to Pitchfork like it's the end all be all of who is highly rated or not but if you want to talk about Pitchfork, how about the fact that they gave his album New Moon an 8.7/10 and listed XO as one of the top 100 albums of the 90s?

I don't "keep referring to Pitchfork" I've mentioned them twice now. Once was pointing out that Bon Iver was hyped an incredible amount by Pitchfork (who wield a good deal of influence, particularly in the indie scene) and the other was to point out he isn't unanimously loved by critics. Neither situation was me treating it like they were the "end all be all" I was just using them as an example because of the amount of influence they have in the indie scene. You're overstating the importance I place in them.

That being said I stated Elliott Smith was popular in the indie scene - which Pitchfork is apart of so pointing out that Pitchfork loves most of his albums (something I never denied) doesn't really prove anything and before you say then it's hypocritical to use them as an example of Smith getting trashed that was to prove the point that he isn't even unanimously loved in the indie scene (Figure 8 was a commercial bomb everywhere else and it led DreamWorks to drop him.)

Also, so what if he didn't win the Oscar? Being nominated and performing at the Oscars are a big deal all by itself. I don't think Bon Iver or John Martyn were ever nominated for an Oscar.

Yeah and Elliott Smith didn't receive a Lifetime Achievement Award like John Martyn did. I don't really know what you're trying to prove with the Oscar point - the song itself wouldn't have been nominated if Good Will Hunting hadn't been such a popular film with big name actors.

Sure the same could be said of the other singer/songwriters. If you feel that John Martyn or Bon Iver (who I'm pretty sure is not an individual singer/songwriter but rather the name of a band) are overrated you should feel free to say so. That's the whole point of this thread. And I'm sure people would be happy to debate you about it but I would hope that they wouldn't get all testy and start insulting you.

I never insulted jackhammer. I said his opinion was ignorant and stupid - probably a bit harsh but I feel it was and I think the fact he won't defend it himself says enough in itself.

[jackhammer]

Originally Posted by sleepy jack

I never insulted jackhammer. I said his opinion was ignorant and stupid - probably a bit harsh but I feel it was and I think the fact he won't defend it himself says enough in itself.

I won't defend it as you love Elliott Smith and whatever I say will be not to your liking. It was an opinion and that's all. Many people have called John Martyn boring yet don't know about his life or what instruments he could play (he ended up playing in a wheelchair for the last few years of his life) but I won't argue with them because it's their opinion and it will not change how I feel about him one little bit so getting myself into a lather about it is kind of pointless to me personally. One thing I am never about music is ignorant and I thought you would have known that from the many chats we have had.

As for pitchfork I can honestly say I have even been on the website and I am never aware of hype surrounding artists. I read a student gig review of Bon Iver and decided to check him out for myself.

[sleepy jack]

So basically you're into music statements not music discussion?

[The Unfan]

Originally Posted by jackhammer

(he ended up playing in a wheelchair for the last few years of his life)

How is not having the use of legs relevant to the discussion of an instrument played with your hands and arms?