RandyMarsh

1. It's still illegal to be a homosexual in well over 40 different countries. Just because somthing is outlawed in a lot of places, doesn't make them right.

2. How do you know how much of a difference it's made to those contries? It's close to impossible to find out. How many parents were using YOUR definition of corporal punishment before it was outlawed? How many still use it even after it's been outlawed? There's no way to know these kind of things for sure.

3. I have no doubt you can discipline a child without using physical discipline (my parents raised me and my sister just fine without it) however, every kid is different. I've known kids who haven't responded to ANY other kind of discipline. I still say using it as a last resort once in a blue moon when a kid has done something terrible is completely acceptable. And let me just reiterate to be completely clear, I'm not talking about smacking a kid full force, I'm talking about smacking lightly in a less sensitive area (not slapping them in the face or punching them in the throat). A lot of kids respond to it when they don't respond to other forms of discipline.

Bloozcrooz

Wow this thread is about equal to religion thread in terms of debate. Really it just go's back and forth with neither side convincing the other to change their beleif or cause.

djchameleon

that's not the point of debates....the point of debates is to have open discussions not try to convince the other side to change their beliefs/cause. because 9/10 that's not going to happen

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Guybrush

Hehe, that's a funny example you got there. Do you know of any countries that were gay friendly and then decided to make it illegal? That would've been a better example, really. The morale of western society has generally progressed; for example over the last hundred years, there's a general reduction in most types of violence and women and gay rights have been on the rise. I think prohibition of corporal punishment is part of that positive trend and just another step on that progression curve.

Actually, a long time ago, I posted a report from Sweden on the effect their ban on corporal punishment has had on swedish society in general, which was generally positive. Although you think it's impossible, it is possible to study the effects of a law and study of the effect of the ban in Sweden has been regular as far as I know.

What you probably mean is that it's impossible to completely isolate the effect of the ban alone. That is true, but an irrelevant criticism because you can still know that an effect you are studying is in large part due to a law or ban. Depending on the analysis you do, you can get a number which tells you the certainty boundaries of the results and stay well within them when you draw your conclusions.

I've made these points several times now and so I assume that they fall on deaf ears. I realize this is likely because you don't know statistics and you don't know scientific method. How sad it is, though, that because of such personal limitations, you're unable to learn anything from experts in the field. If I'm starting to sound condescending, sorry, but I get a bit tired of it. I've posted a wealth of scientific studies and while everyone here rely on, benefit from and believe in scientific research and methodology in many aspects of their lives, suddenly all these studies are unreliable. And this criticism comes from guys like you who have not read them and do not know how they are at all written or quality controlled. To me, it seems your mind's like a train speeding along the same old tracks and nothing (not even unbiased scientific studies) can make you change direction.

I generally believe in where the evidence points. If these studies had concluded that corporal punishment was good for society, I would've been for it.

I disagree, violence may get immediate conformity but the long-term effects may be negative and as a whole, corporal punishment has a negative effect on society and is not needed to raise new generations of productive, happy and functional members of society. Banning corporal punishment will help remove the negative effect of corporal punishment on society. It's that simple; don't do it. They're kids, and even though a light slap only used in emergencies may seem effective, you can control them in other ways than using violence.

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RandyMarsh

Tore, when you have kids maybe you'll open your mind a little to the fact that some children CANNOT be controlled without physical discipline being used every now and then. It is NOT abuse, it is a light slap, the kind of thing they do to eachother when they give their friends dead arms. Not a beating.

Also, you can find scientific studies to support ANY arguement, there's plenty studies out there supporting physical discipline but you most likely haven't seen them because you're only looking at the things that support your arguement.

Hell i've seen scientific studies that link the colour of your walls in your bedroom to the increase of the chances of you getting cancer. They're constantly spouting out utter tripe simply because they're paid to do so. I doubt I've ever read a scientific study that was 100% true and hadn't been corrupted or altered to exaggerate the topic at hand. Their opinion has everything to do with those who pay their wage and very little to do with science. Even independent studies can be swayed at times. I wonder how many of these studies were carried out by scientists who live in those countries and who work for those governments? They certainly wouldn't shed it in a negative light they want the world to think they made a good choice not a bad one.


I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. But remember this thread when you have kids of your own.

Guybrush

You're right, your belief that it's simply not possible to control some children without the use of violence seems completely ridiculous to me and it's not an idea I feel very open to, just like you can't seem to open your mind to the possibility that not prohibiting corporal punishment allows for and enables far worse things than light slaps used only in emergency and that prohibition will be good for society.

How simple and convenient it is for you to discard the vast majority of scientific work on the subject in one fell swoop of an argument.

A hole in your argument, though, is that among those references I posted was a review study which summarizes the findings and conclusions in the field of study. I'm not picking strange studies that prove the abnorm, I am pointing out the consensus findings in the field. Here's the abstract of another review study from America :

Source : http://psycnet.apa.org/index.cfm?fa=...2002-01514-001

Follow that link and have a look at the number of studies in the reference list for this article. Are you gonna claim they are all completely invalid?

Fine.

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dankrsta

Well, very few people here have kids, regardless of whether they're pro or against physical discipline. I didn't want to get involved in this discussion at first, because I had it many times with other parents, my friends, whether spanking is really necessary and effective. We always end up spinning in circles and at a certain point you can only resort to your own experience. For this reason I don't like to be judgmental towards parents who use spanking rarely when nothing else works, or in extreme and dangerous situations. I can maybe understand the frustration that leads to it, but at the same time I don't justify the act. I know every child and every situation is different, but so is every parent and how they react to it. However, it is my firm belief that spanking (even the light one, and I'm not even going to mention beating) is not effective in the long run.

Like I said I can only offer my own experience with my own child. Never once in his 8 years of life have I had to resort to any kind of physical discipline and that includes the light spanking. There were always other means working to get my point across. The most important thing, no matter how cliche it sounds, is communication. And that starts with day one. You don't wait till your kid is at a certain age to be able to understand that doing something is wrong. They always understand 'no' and even a two year old can understand why is something 'no'. It takes a lot of patience, persistence, to always be observing and flexible in communicating. But, it's worth it in the long run.

Before I answer this, I'd like to say that this poll and its result doesn't surprise me much. In Serbia the result would probably be 80/20 in favor of physical discipline. It would have to pass a lot of time before the law against it can be implemented here. And even then I'm not sure if it'd be enforced.

But to answer: I would say 'Yes', prohibit physical discipline. Maybe it would be too harsh for occasional light spankers, but if it's gonna reduce the real beatings and abuse, then 'yes'.

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Freebase Dali

I don't think most parents decide to spank their children purely out of necessity. Or at least, I think it has more to do with the way they were raised regarding physical punishment. Of course, I'm only speculating about it, as I'm not a parent myself, but I just assume that physical punishment presents itself as an option that makes sense more often to those who've grown up with the idea that it's right, than to those who were raised in a different environment. While that seems obvious enough, I've met enough people in my day to see a general trend regarding how much reason is really being applied behind the decision to spank.
I grew up getting my butt whooped. And after all that, I had the idea that that's how you effectively manage disobedience (using myself as "proof" of its effectiveness, which is kind of a mistake for anyone to attempt, considering the nature of our ego). But thanks to a broadening of my horizons by insights from others and a willingness to recognize that I can't make a qualified decision about it at the moment, I realized that it's a lot easier to see the other side of it and have it make sense just as much, if not more, than what I was raised to put stake in.

All I'm saying is regardless of the side of the fence we're on, the important thing is to be willing to challenge our own beliefs in the matter and actually get the evidence rather than to simply give in to what's comfortable to our sensibilities.

Scarlett O'Hara

I was throttled as a kid...it actually haunted me throughout my depression. I definitely think a light spanking is okay, but nothing more than that.

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Janszoon

What about anal beads?

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