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WWWP 11-26-2020 12:40 AM

I got to pick out things my peers donated to the secondhand store so if they had something I really wanted I could manipulate them into not wanting it anymore

I made the last part up because in reality I would go to school in their old clothes and they would always point it out lol

jwb 11-26-2020 12:58 AM

Lol

I had clothes that didn't fit at some points. **** was embarrassing. Usually just had crappy non name brand **** though. But that wasn't even my point with with candy pokemon hustle. I never bought clothes. I just had a bit of money to work with.

WWWP 11-26-2020 01:38 AM

What did you spend it on? Any cash I ever had all went to candy or my parent's chewing tobacco habit I think.

jwb 11-26-2020 10:07 AM

Probably yo yos and wrestling **** and pokemon cards etc. Those were the fads back then

When I was 14 I had a few hundred saved up and bought a car.

Marie Monday 11-27-2020 04:19 PM

they're onto us
https://i.imgur.com/znTL0GE.jpeg

Psy-Fi 11-27-2020 04:38 PM


Marie Monday 11-27-2020 04:39 PM

omfg I need to watch that asap

edit: wait it's a book? oh well, I need to read it then

second edit: it gets a two-star review on goodreads with the comment 'not actually about Satan :(' :laughing:

The Batlord 11-27-2020 04:52 PM

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._poster_02.jpg

Marie Monday 11-27-2020 05:04 PM

https://i.imgur.com/tsgUaPa.png
Of course you know lesbian nazi ****

Tristan_Geoff 11-27-2020 05:39 PM

This is why we have to vote for Bernie Sanders

WWWP 11-27-2020 09:58 PM

:laughing:

adidasss 12-01-2020 05:57 PM

Elliot Page: star of Juno and X-Men announces he is transgender

Certainly didn't see that coming.

WWWP 12-01-2020 09:16 PM

Are you able to predict gender identity based on appearance otherwise?

adidasss 12-01-2020 09:46 PM

Sometimes.

adidasss 12-01-2020 10:19 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Page

Wikipedia entry is already adjusted, amazing. If you google him now all the references are to he.

Btw, I see that he's married. I imagine that will be a complex issue to navigate around. They did a very nuanced storyline about a couple where one of them turned out to be trans on the last Tales of the city where Elliot played also.

jwb 12-02-2020 12:42 AM

Damn I was thinking you were talking about Michael Cera

I'm disappointed tbh. He would've made a good Eleanor Roosevelt lookalike.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 02:57 AM

Oh wow. Good for him that he figured it out, and brave to come out publicly like that <3
I can sometimes tell (and I have a pretty good gaydar) but I had no idea either.

WWWP 12-02-2020 09:12 AM

Being trans does not equal being gay, there's no such thing as a trans-radar.

And the answer is no, lol, you cannot tell someone's gender identity just by looking at them. That's the whole point of rejecting the gender binary. How someone presents outwardly doesn't indicate how they identify internally. It was not a real question.

The Batlord 12-02-2020 09:55 AM

Just look for the Adam's apple.

adidasss 12-02-2020 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147688)
Being trans does not equal being gay, there's no such thing as a trans-radar.

And the answer is no, lol, you cannot tell someone's gender identity just by looking at them. That's the whole point of rejecting the gender binary. How someone presents outwardly doesn't indicate how they identify internally. It was not a real question.

And yet, I remain surprised.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147688)
Being trans does not equal being gay, there's no such thing as a trans-radar.

And the answer is no, lol, you cannot tell someone's gender identity just by looking at them. That's the whole point of rejecting the gender binary. How someone presents outwardly doesn't indicate how they identify internally. It was not a real question.

Oh come on, if someone is not cis but hasn't come out yet, and they're therefore uncomfortable with the gender they publicly identify as, there can definitely be signs. That is what I mean. That kind of discomfort with indentity is also a gaydar thing, which is why I brought that up.
Also, in the ideal case gender identity and presentation aren't connected at all (and I obviously have a lot of personal experience with that struggle) but in practise it often is.
By saying you can tell most people don't mean that they can literally be sure (unless you're Hawk)

WWWP 12-02-2020 11:00 AM

Yeah but the point of moving away from/abolishing the gender binary is acknowledging that gender identity is internal and not reflective of outward appearance. You could look at someone and assume they are genderqueer or gendernonconforming, or masculine of center, etc. etc. based on the way they present, but you can't look at someone and tell they're trans, because it's so much deeper than appearance. Trying to guess at someone's "real" gender vs what they're trying to pass as perpetuates "passing" culture which only reinforces the harm that comes from adhering to the binary.

I'm not making this up out of nowhere. Maybe it's a regional thing, but here (and on the internet?) it is considered not only pointless but harmful to guess at peoples' identities. Because when you look at a person and decide you "can tell" or go on to deem them trans, you're guessing at 1) how they identify internally, 2) what genitalia they possess and 3) what gender they were assigned at birth. Surely you can see why those things are weird and creepy to do, and why it's no one's business but their own.

Thinking you are able to "tell" whether or not people are trans before they come out is just weird and creepy arrogance. Do you see where I'm coming from?

WWWP 12-02-2020 11:04 AM

It's like trying to guess someone's race. Sure, sometimes you might guess right. But why are you guessing in the first place?

Lucem Ferre 12-02-2020 11:07 AM

I'm a beautiful white man.

But I do hate it when people assume I'm not beautiful.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147700)
Yeah but the point of moving away from/abolishing the gender binary is acknowledging that gender identity is internal and not reflective of outward appearance. You could look at someone and assume they are genderqueer or gendernonconforming, or masculine of center, etc. etc. based on the way they present, but you can't look at someone and tell they're trans, because it's so much deeper than appearance. Trying to guess at someone's "real" gender vs what they're trying to pass as perpetuates "passing" culture which only reinforces the harm that comes from adhering to the binary.

I'm not making this up out of nowhere. Maybe it's a regional thing, but here (and on the internet?) it is considered not only pointless but harmful to guess at peoples' identities. Because when you look at a person and decide you "can tell" or go on to deem them trans, you're guessing at 1) how they identify internally, 2) what genitalia they possess and 3) what gender they were assigned at birth. Surely you can see why those things are weird and creepy to do, and why it's no one's business but their own.

Thinking you are able to "tell" whether or not people are trans before they come out is just weird and creepy arrogance. Do you see where I'm coming from?

Of course I see what you mean, I know and I agree. I've found out the truth of what you're saying long ago, the hard way.
I know it's mostly on me for phrasing things clumsily, but you have to take the 'I can tell' way less strongly than I think you do. I generally don't go around guessing these things about people, I never wondered whether Elliot Page might be trans, but when I hear such things often in hindsight it makes sense and I realise I had a subconscious feeling. In my personal case, it means picking up that someone seems to be struggling with something similar to me.
Also, sometimes the guessing is not entirely pointless for that reason. It can be about trying to find people who relate to your struggles.

jwb 12-02-2020 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147701)
It's like trying to guess someone's race. Sure, sometimes you might guess right. But why are you guessing in the first place?

but race is a social construct based on outward appearance...

The confusing thing about the whole gender question to me is that if you completely divorce gender from any specific characteristics you render it functionally meaningless

Like if I say I identify as a woman but that changes nothing about my appearance, personality, presentation, etc then what does me identifying as a woman even mean? It seems like it means nothing at all.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147710)
but race is a social construct based on outward appearance...

The confusing thing about the whole gender question to me is that if you completely divorce gender from any specific characteristics you render it functionally meaningless

Like if I say I identify as a woman but that changes nothing about my appearance, personality, presentation, etc then what does me identifying as a woman even mean? It seems like it means nothing at all.

It becomes VERY abstract at least.
This is related to why gender should be abolished altogether. I've talked about this before, but having such a thing as gender at all is perpetuating harmful notions.

jwb 12-02-2020 11:59 AM

It's not even just abstract, it's essentially meaningless as far as I can tell even on the abstract level.

Like you can say it's internal but even then, internally there must be some characteristics you associate with being a woman in order for you to make that internal distinction. Otherwise it just comes down to whether you like the word "woman" more than "man."

I don't think it can be abolished in the sense that people will always associate characteristics with different categories and percieve those categorical distinctions intrinsically. I think that's why gender exists to a large extent. Somewhat similar to why race exists.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147713)
It's not even just abstract, it's essentially meaningless as far as I can tell even on the abstract level.

Like you can say it's internal but even then, internally there must be some characteristics you associate with being a woman in order for you to make that internal distinction. Otherwise it just comes down to whether you like the word "woman" more than "man."

I don't think it can be abolished in the sense that people will always associate characteristics with different categories and percieve those categorical distinctions intrinsically. I think that's why gender exists to a large extent. Somewhat similar to why race exists.

True. And I agree it can probably never be abolished, which is why I consider it a compromise.
Still it is true that even if gender has certain characteristics, you can't just know for sure from the outside.

jwb 12-02-2020 12:15 PM

I have no conception of being able to tell unless there's outward indicators. If you're a trans woman who doesn't quite pass or still has a slightly masculine voice or other characteristics, I can probably tell. If you pass then obviously I can't tell. If you are one of those ambiguous gender queer types I probably just assume you're just a chick with a punk rock haircut.

As far as being able to spot a trans person before they transition.. nah that's out of my realm.

I can spot gays and bis pretty well though whether closeted or not. Like I'm fairly convinced Obama might be bi tbh.

Marie Monday 12-02-2020 12:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147716)
I have no conception of being able to tell unless there's outward indicators. If you're a trans woman who doesn't quite pass or still has a slightly masculine voice or other characteristics, I can probably tell. If you pass then obviously I can't tell. If you are one of those ambiguous gender queer types I probably just assume you're just a chick with a punk rock haircut.

As far as being able to spot a trans person before they transition.. nah that's out of my realm.

I can spot gays and bis pretty well though whether closeted or not. Like I'm fairly convinced Obama might be bi tbh.

Well like I said, the only way in which I think I have a feeling for someone not being cis is unconsciously picking up a sense of gender struggle or something. It's not something definite so I can't explain very well. I would never openly speculate, or just claim to know that someone is trans.

WWWP 12-02-2020 12:41 PM

Yes to everything Marie said.
JWB is right too - the whole point is that gender IS meaningless when you break it down, and that's why we need to untrain ourselves to view people in these x or y categories. Some would argue that their identity makes up a big part of who they are, but tbh if your gender identity is your entire personality you're probably a pretty boring person.

Oh and swap "race" for "heritage" then, if it's tripping you up. Have you ever taken that Smithsonian (I think) test where you guess the race of people? There's another version where you are shown two pictures of different people and it prompts you with a word like "intelligent" or "bad-tempered" and you associate it with one of the two pictures, which then is analyzed and presented as "here are your internal biases" kind of thing. Like people typically will categorize darker skinned black people as more violent, less trustworthy, unattractive, etc., whereas lighter skinned black people are assigned more of the positive traits. Idk if it's still up I took them in college years ago, but it was interesting.

jwb 12-02-2020 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147724)
Yes to everything Marie said.
JWB is right too - the whole point is that gender IS meaningless when you break it down, and that's why we need to untrain ourselves to view people in these x or y categories. Some would argue that their identity makes up a big part of who they are, but tbh if your gender identity is your entire personality you're probably a pretty boring person.

It's only meaningless if you insist there are no characteristics associated with said gender. The association of certain characteristics with a certain gender is what makes gender a thing in the first place.

Quote:

Oh and swap "race" for "heritage" then, if it's tripping you up. Have you ever taken that Smithsonian (I think) test where you guess the race of people? There's another version where you are shown two pictures of different people and it prompts you with a word like "intelligent" or "bad-tempered" and you associate it with one of the two pictures, which then is analyzed and presented as "here are your internal biases" kind of thing. Like people typically will categorize darker skinned black people as more violent, less trustworthy, unattractive, etc., whereas lighter skinned black people are assigned more of the positive traits. Idk if it's still up I took them in college years ago, but it was interesting.
no. I've seen the inherent bias one though but I think the methodology on that was rather dubious.

The Batlord 12-02-2020 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WWWP (Post 2147701)
It's like trying to guess someone's race. Sure, sometimes you might guess right. But why are you guessing in the first place?

I'll bet Wyoming is one of those states where everyone is running around claiming to be 1/16th Cherokee and Steph still does on the down low.

WWWP 12-02-2020 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marie Monday (Post 2147723)
Well like I said, the only way in which I think I have a feeling for someone not being cis is unconsciously picking up a sense of gender struggle or something. It's not something definite so I can't explain very well. I would never openly speculate, or just claim to know that someone is trans.

I know what you mean, it's like tuning in to a shared experience or insecurity or something. Seeing someone struggle with their identity doesn't always automatically mean TRANS or NB but there are definitely gut feelings like "I see you trying on these different costumes and masks, good for you, can't wait until you figure out which one is you" kind of thing.

With Elliot Page, he'd already been an outspoken queer figure, so I can understand why it doesn't take any stretch of the imagination for one to accept that he is genderqueer as well. It's just weird to say "it's not surprising" because who exactly IS surprised? Who has a stake in his identity to the point where this is surprising news? Is it surprising when someone comes out as gay? I don't think so, it just *is.* Like by saying you're not surprised are you trying to show that you're that much more accepting of it? Or that you somehow predicted it? Or that your thumb weighs so heavily on the pulse of queer culture that you have some kind of extra sense that makes you privy to this information? Just a weird thing to say imo.

WWWP 12-02-2020 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jwb (Post 2147725)
It's only meaningless if you insist there are no characteristics associated with said gender. The association of certain characteristics with a certain gender is what makes gender a thing in the first place.

That's exactly what's being rejected - there is no certain characteristic that is inherently "male" or "female." There are no real gender roles, we put them upon ourselves. Getting rid of the binary = getting rid of gender = unlearning male v female traits/characteristics/interests/etc.

WWWP 12-02-2020 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Batlord (Post 2147726)
I'll bet Wyoming is one of those states where everyone is running around claiming to be 1/16th Cherokee and Steph still does on the down low.

Lol nah. The whites are proud to be white. I was told growing up that my great grandmother was from the Blackfoot tribe but that turned out to be bull****. I took a DNA test and I am 100% the whitest of whites. No melanin mixed in the bloodline anywhere. I'm all Irish/Scottish and Scandinavian. My family tree pre-mormonism is all Søren Sørensens and Jøren Jørensens.

jwb 12-02-2020 12:56 PM

I'm rejecting the rejection.

You can't will power your way out of categorizing people intuitively.

WWWP 12-02-2020 12:57 PM

Sure you can, lizard brain.

Lucem Ferre 12-02-2020 12:57 PM

I'd be surprised of Joe Rogan came out as trans.


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